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Whether you like it or not most historians have accepted a person named Jesus existed at that time and was crucified and his death led to the creation of a major religion in the following centuries. The issue of a belief in the miracles, etc., claimed is separate from the historical existence of Jesus as a person.
These historians are in 4 groups.
Christian apologists.
Secular historians using Christian arguments not used by other historians.
Secular historians who recognize how bad Christian arguments are.
Historians not trained in the relevant fields who accept the status quo. Most historians fall into this camp.
Ironically YOU ignoring the TWO pieces of evidence I posted.
Because it is so much easier to ignore something you are in no position to refute.
Your presuppositions are clear.
I gave you 66 different sources. You choose to ignore them. We look at history -- the fact that a small group of men turned into a massive institution in a short time...you ignore that. HISTORY testifies to the fact that Jesus existed...but that doesn't play well.
You are here for 1 reason--and that's to attack Christianity. I don't know why..maybe it's internet tough guy syndrome. Maybe you just like to argue and you get bullied at home. I don't know. But I do know it's not because you're actually interested in having a real conversation.
There were no printing presses in that time period. Manuscripts were copied by hand over many centuries to preserve these works and mistakes were frequently made in doing so regarding spelling, etc.
Irrelevant to my argument. We know what early Christians wrote, and how they collected martyr stories. The fact that no one recorded what would have been one of the earliest martyr stories by one of the most famous historians of that time, AND the fact you can not derive ChrEstians from Christus refutes O'Niell and his poison well fallacies.
Please use a real historian next time, not Tim O'Niell.
Irrelevant to my argument. We know what early Christians wrote, and how they collected martyr stories. The fact that no one recorded what would have been one of the earliest martyr stories by one of the most famous historians of that time, AND the fact you can not derive ChrEstians from Christus refutes O'Niell and his poison well fallacies.
Please use a real historian next time, not Tim O'Niell.
Tacitus was a Roman. Romans were the ones persecuting the Christians. And he did not seemingly care for the Christians much. Why would Christians have made use of him and his work?
So who were these "Chrestians" and can you find another source referencing their distinct existence from "Christians"?
Christian apologists.
Secular historians using Christian arguments not used by other historians.
Secular historians who recognize how bad Christian arguments are.
Historians not trained in the relevant fields who accept the status quo. Most historians fall into this camp.
Impossible, there are NO first century AD sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You choose to ignore them.
I have not seen them, so how can I ignore them?
But let me guess, Seutonius not writing about Jesus; the Talmud contradicting the gospels; Thallus writing goodness knows when about a solar eclipse (so not Jesus); Phlegon writing about the same event in Turkey (so not Jesus); plus others in the second century AD basing their works on the fictional gospels, so not independent.
Anyone I have missed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
We look at history -- the fact that a small group of men turned into a massive institution in a short time...you ignore that.
Pliny the Younger said they were dying out around 110 AD. You ignore that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
HISTORY testifies to the fact that Jesus existed...but that doesn't play well.
It does no such thing. Even in the 2nd century AD they could not decide when he lived or died. All you have are the fictional gospels and Acts, plus several letters that say Jesus was a divine being who was never on earth, and who was sacrificed once, in heaven.
You even have to ignore what your own religious book says. And ignoring your sources means your are NOT doing history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
You are here for 1 reason--and that's to attack Christianity. I don't know why..maybe it's internet tough guy syndrome. Maybe you just like to argue and you get bullied at home. I don't know. But I do know it's not because you're actually interested in having a real conversation.
No, I do not believe in ANY gods, and I know more about Christianity because I am interested in it's history. That is why I am here.
You inventing stupid excuses while NEVER having a real conversation (posting does not count) shows who has no interest here.
Tacitus was a Roman. Romans were the ones persecuting the Christians. And he did not seemingly care for the Christians much. Why would Christians have made use of him and his work?
He does not mention Christians. And his friend Pliny the Younger knew nothing about Christianity, so this 'persecution' may just be another Christian invention.
And inserting Jesus into a history gives more credibility, oder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader
So who were these "Chrestians" and can you find another source referencing their distinct existence from "Christians"?
Seutonius mentions one Chrestus (means good in Greek) and his followers, so Tacitus may originally have wrote something about them, and the Christians later 'corrected' this passage.
This is only a theory, but it does at least have some evidence backing it, unlike the idea that Tacitus would work through alleged Roman records to find something about a trial of an obscure Jewish rebel.
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does not count) shows who has no interest here.
