Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You guys think evidence and proof rules the day, when it really doesn't.
There were people who looked Jesus in the face, who heard His words, and who were healed by His power that did not believe in Him. You can't have more evidence that direct one on one contact, and it wasn't enough for many. Despite the fact that Jesus lived among them, they killed Him. Jesus did about three years of ministry - He died publicly and rose to life physically, and He ended up with around 120 true followers. That means most of the people rejected Him even though He was right there among them.
It's really about what YOU want to believe, and who YOU want to believe in - and more importantly, to whom GOD wants to reveal Himself.
So you guys aren't really fooling me with your call for proof... it's just the excuse for today.
The above bolded is what absolutely floors me about Christians. They take at face value ANYTHING the Bible says simply because it's the Bible. Doesn't matter how riddled with errors the Bible has been proven to be
Quote:
Historical and Geographical errors in the Bible From A to Z
A. River Gihon could not possibly flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13)
B. The name Babel does not come from the Hebrew word 'balbal' or 'confuse' but from the babylonian 'babili' or 'gate of God' which is a translation of the original Sumerian name Ka-dimirra. (Gen 11:9)
C. Ur was not a Chaldean city until 1000 years after Abraham (Gen 11:28, 15:7)
D. Abraham pursued enemies to 'Dan' (Gen 14:14). That name was not used geographically until after the conquest (Judge 18:29)
E. Gen 36:31, telling of Jacob and Esau, lists kings of Edom "before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." This must have been written hundreds of years later, after Israel had kings.
F. Joseph tells Pharaoh he comes from the "land of the Hebrews" (Gen 40:15). There was no such land until after the conquest under Joshua.
G. The Egyptian princess names the baby she finds "Moses" because she "drew him out" of the water (Heb meshethi). Why would she make a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)?
H. No Egyptian record exists mentioning Moses or his devastation of Egypt.
I. Moses refers to "Palestine" (Ex 15:14). No such name was in use then.
J. Law of Moses is the "statutes of God and his laws" (Ex 18:26), but it closely mirrors the Code of Hammurabi, which was penned 1800 BC, hundreds of years before Moses.
K. Priests are mentioned at Ex 19:22-24, but they are not provided for until Ex 28:1.
L. Moses mentions Rabbath, where Og's bedstead is located (Deut3:11). Moses could not have any knowledge of Rabbath,which was not captured by the Hebrews until David's time,500 years later (2 Sam 12:26).
M. Jericho and Ai (Josh 8) were both ancient ruins at the time of the conquest of Canaan, according to archaeologists. Jericho's walls were destroyed centuries before Joshua.
N. Kings are referred to at Deut 17:17-19, before Israel had kings.
O. The Wilderness is viewed as history at Num 15:32, showing that Numbers was written later.
P. The Sabbath law was unknown when the man gathered sticks at Num 15:32-34.
Q. Book of Joshua refers to Book of Jasher in the past, mentioned at 2 Sam 1:18, therefore Joshua must be post-David.
R. Captivity is mentioned at Judg 18:30, making it post-Exile.
S. David took Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54). But Jerusalem was not captured until 7 years after David became king (2 Sam 5).
T. David paid 600 shekels of gold for the threshing floor (1 Chron21:22-25). But shekels of gold were not yet used in business transactions (this is the only use of the term in the OT).
U. Psalm 18:6 mentions the temple, thus cannot be by David.
V. Defeat of Sennacherib did not happen at Jerusalem, but at Pelusium, near Egypt, and Jews were not involved, contrary to 2 Kings 19.
W. Ninevah was so large it took three days to cross, i.e. about 60 miles (Jonah 3:3-4). Yet it had only 120,000 inhabitants, making a population density of of about 42 people per square mile for a city.
X. Daniel's account of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar is historically inaccurate; Nebuchadnezzar was never mad. Belshazzar, whom he says was king, was never king, but only regent. Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar, but of Nabo-nidus. Babylon was not conquered by Darius the Mede, but by Cyrus the Great, in 539 BC (Dan 5:31). Darius the Mede is unknown to history.
Y. Chronology of the empires of the Medes and Persians is historically incorrect in Isa 13:17, 21:2, Jer 51:11, 28
Z. Esther (and all the characters in the Book of Esther except Ahasuerus [= Xerxes]) is unknown to history, even though itclaims that its events are "written in the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia" (Est 10:2). The Book of Esther is not quoted by any pre-Christian writer, nor mentioned in NT, nor quoted by early Christian fathers.
yet Rob can say, WITH A STRAIGHT FACE YET, he "knows" people looked into Jesus face when history cannot even prove there WAS a Jesus. This is why Christians get taken to the cleaners regularly--because they are so trusting of anything anyone says--as long as it conforms to the Bible, of course.
Rob, I'll say it again: If sex gets one guy through the day sanity intact, do it. If booze does for the next guy, do it! Do whatever you have to, believe whatever you want to make it through the day. If talking to Jesus every day is what gets you through the day, GO FOR IT!
Feel free to assert your authority on my statement as you wish. Please note, it doesn't make the original statement any less accurate. If you feel you have expanded on it, or clarified it in some way...okay.
Rabbi Schnerson IS an example of one revered as a Messiah/Moishach whose faith is unequivocally based in the Old Testament/Torah.
And you’d be wrong...You do know that you are arguing with a Jewish a Rabbi, don’t you?...
And you’d be wrong...You do know that you are arguing with a Jewish a Rabbi, don’t you?...
Just like you know you are talking to one who lived right down the street from where he is laid to rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
The above bolded is what absolutely floors me about Christians. They take at face value ANYTHING the Bible says simply because it's the Bible. Doesn't matter how riddled with errors the Bible has been proven to be
yet Rob can say, WITH A STRAIGHT FACE YET, he "knows" people looked into Jesus face when history cannot even prove there WAS a Jesus. This is why Christians get taken to the cleaners regularly--because they are so trusting of anything anyone says--as long as it conforms to the Bible, of course.
Rob, I'll say it again: If sex gets one guy through the day sanity intact, do it. If booze does for the next guy, do it! Do whatever you have to, believe whatever you want to make it through the day. If talking to Jesus every day is what gets you through the day, GO FOR IT!
So wait, you quote a wall of text taken from the Old Testament and somehow any issues that are said to be a problem with that text help prove Jesus Christ did not exist. Yeah...GO FOR IT! lol
Last edited by ComeCloser; 09-16-2018 at 01:47 PM..
Just like you know you are talking to one who lived right down the street from where he is laid to rest.
So wait, you quote a wall of text taken from the Old Testament and somehow any issues that are said to be a problem with that text help prove Jesus Christ did not exist. Yeah...GO FOR IT! lol
I think you missed the point. The Old Testament supposedly had all these prophecies about Jesus yet the Old Testament is so riddled with errors how can anybody in their right mind believe anything it says? It certainly is NOT divinely inspired. It's just ancient scribblings written on sheepskins by a bunch of tribal goat herders 3000 years ago.
I think you missed the point. The Old Testament supposedly had all these prophecies about Jesus yet the Old Testament is so riddled with errors how can anybody in their right mind believe anything it says? It certainly is NOT divinely inspired. It's just ancient scribblings written on sheepskins by a bunch of tribal goat herders 3000 years ago.
I don't know, however, it is just a reference for Christians. Levitcus is there to give us examples of Levitical Law, but it is not there to say Christians have ever practiced Levitical Law, however, they may have, since Christ and his followers were originally Jews.
I certainly don't think any practicing Jews would appreciate that their historical stories and customs are not divinely inspired, in your learned opinion, but I don't know. What I do know is that most followers of any religion, and most peoples with any written historical accounts, do not care about what people who try to debunk their history feel and write.
I like some parts of the Old Testament. The Songs of Solomon can be quite entertaining to read. I really don't care if Solomon actually existed or not. It doesn't effect my life in any negative way to simply accept that he did, and read about his romantic endeavors.
I don't know, however, it is just a reference for Christians. Levitcus is there to give us examples of Levitical Law, but it is not there to say Christians have ever practiced Levitical Law, however, they may have, since Christ and his followers were originally Jews.
I certainly don't think any practicing Jews would appreciate that their historical stories and customs are not divinely inspired, in your learned opinion, but I don't know. What I do know is that most followers of any religion, and most peoples with any written historical accounts, do not care about what people who try to debunk their history feel and write.
I like some parts of the Old Testament. The Songs of Solomon can be quite entertaining to read. I really don't care if Solomon actually existed or not. It doesn't effect my life in any negative way to simply accept that he did, and read about his romantic endeavors.
Again, Closer, I think you're missing my point. Let's take your comments one by one:
Quote:
I don't know, however, it is just a reference for Christians. Levitcus is there to give us examples of Levitical Law, but it is not there to say Christians have ever practiced Levitical Law, however, they may have, since Christ and his followers were originally Jews.
Levitcus is not for Christians and it has no business being in what people refer to as the Bible. The Old Testament is strictly for Jews. It's their laws and history. The only reason the OT is included in our modern day Bible is because religious nuts think it has prophecies about Jesus in it which it doesn't. I've proved that time and time again, on this thread for one place. Isaiah, especially Chap 53 is no way, no how anything about Jesus. The 'he" is Israel/Jacob. The Jews believe this, so should the Christians. The reason Christians believe Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament is because they've been brainwashed to believe this from the cradle.
Quote:
I certainly don't think any practicing Jews would appreciate that their historical stories and customs are not divinely inspired, in your learned opinion, but I don't know. What I do know is that most followers of any religion, and most peoples with any written historical accounts, do not care about what people who try to debunk their history feel and write.
Most Jews today are atheist. For them this is just customs stuff. And you're right about Christians not caring. Rob certainly doesn't give two hoots about what I or anybody else says no matter how much proof we produce showing how wrongheaded his thinking is. Rob talks to his god. I think in his head he hears god talking back to him. This is usually referred to as hearing voices, unless you're Christian and then it's called praying.
Quote:
I like some parts of the Old Testament. The Songs of Solomon can be quite entertaining to read. I really don't care if Solomon actually existed or not. It doesn't effect my life in any negative way to simply accept that he did, and read about his romantic endeavors.
I've nothing against reading the Bible as literature reflective of a period in Jewish history. That's all it's good for. It's certainly NOT the divine word of God. It's too many thousands of mistakes in it for Christians to be able to call it "inspired by God".
Leviticus is not for Christians and it has no business being in what people refer to as the Bible. The Old Testament is strictly for Jews. It's their laws and history. The only reason the OT is included in our modern day Bible is because religious nuts think it has prophecies about Jesus in it which it doesn't. I've proved that time and time again, on this thread for one place. Isaiah, especially Chap 53 is no way, no how anything about Jesus. The 'he" is Israel/Jacob. The Jews believe this, so should the Christians. The reason Christians believe Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament is because they've been brainwashed to believe this from the cradle.
As someone who was NOT brainwashed from the cradle, you are not only wrong but very wrong. You have proved nothing about prophecy time and time again. Prophecy has nothing to do with Divination or predicting whatever the ancient Israelites THOUGHT God was inspiring them about. They were brainwashed to believe in a War God and His worldly interference in human worldly affairs. They had no conception of spiritual purpose because they were terrified of Spirits. It is why Jesus in the narrative had to be so circumspect using parables, etc.
What the Jews THINK about what was prophesied is irrelevant, Thrill. Prophecy does not work that way. True prophecy is revealed by the unfolding of events through time. There is no question that the events unfolding through millennia reveal and validate the real prophecies and they pertain to Jesus the Christ. They have nothing to do with what the Israelites EXPECTED and still do not. There will be no worldly King because we already have the Spiritual King that was actually prophesied.
Again, Closer, I think you're missing my point. Let's take your comments one by one:
Levitcus is not for Christians and it has no business being in what people refer to as the Bible. The Old Testament is strictly for Jews. It's their laws and history. The only reason the OT is included in our modern day Bible is because religious nuts think it has prophecies about Jesus in it which it doesn't. I've proved that time and time again, on this thread for one place. Isaiah, especially Chap 53 is no way, no how anything about Jesus. The 'he" is Israel/Jacob. The Jews believe this, so should the Christians. The reason Christians believe Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament is because they've been brainwashed to believe this from the cradle.
Most Jews today are atheist. For them this is just customs stuff. And you're right about Christians not caring. Rob certainly doesn't give two hoots about what I or anybody else says no matter how much proof we produce showing how wrongheaded his thinking is. Rob talks to his god. I think in his head he hears god talking back to him. This is usually referred to as hearing voices, unless you're Christian and then it's called praying.
I've nothing against reading the Bible as literature reflective of a period in Jewish history. That's all it's good for. It's certainly NOT the divine word of God. It's too many thousands of mistakes in it for Christians to be able to call it "inspired by God".
I get your point, but you are missing mine. Your opinion does not matter. What authority do you have to decide what goes into someone elses book, or even into their history, or even into what they believe?
Would you not have to confess the answer would be - none?
Would you want say - me - to have such authority over you, your book, your history, your beliefs? I certainly hope not.
At any rate - nothing in the Old Testament has anything to do with Jesus. If people believe he was predicted, okay. If they don't, okay. He is already worshipped by quite literally millions of people throughout the world. The comparative handful that speak against him will have no effect on that.
As someone who was NOT brainwashed from the cradle, you are not only wrong but very wrong. You have proved nothing about prophecy time and time again. Prophecy has nothing to do with Divination or predicting whatever the ancient Israelites THOUGHT God was inspiring them about. They were brainwashed to believe in a War God and His worldly interference in human worldly affairs. They had no conception of spiritual purpose because they were terrified of Spirits. It is why Jesus in the narrative had to be so circumspect using parables, etc.
What the Jews THINK about what was prophesied is irrelevant, Thrill. Prophecy does not work that way. True prophecy is revealed by the unfolding of events through time. There is no question that the events unfolding through millennia reveal and validate the real prophecies and they pertain to Jesus the Christ. They have nothing to do with what the Israelites EXPECTED and still do not. There will be no worldly King because we already have the Spiritual King that was actually prophesied.
You've missed my point entirely, Mystic. I didn't realize my writing is so garbled.
I'm sorry but no secular Bible scholar believes Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament. If anything, Jesus was the exact antithesis of the Messiah prophesied. You know that.
Quote:
The messiah's task was to bring in the Messianic Age, a one-time event, and a presumed messiah who is killed before completing the task the way Jesus would not be the messiah.
According to Isaiah,
1. the Messiah will be a paternal descendant of King David.
2. He is expected to return the Jews to their homeland and rebuild the Temple,
3. reign as King,
4. usher in an era of peace and understanding where "the knowledge of God" fills the earth, leading the nations to "end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel."
Christians tried to argue only the first criteria by ginning up a genealogy for Joseph. Problem was that Joseph wasn't Jesus' father, according to Christians, God was. The Jews never expected nor did they want their messiah to be a god, they wanted him to be a great warrior mortal man who would accomplish all the above.
Because Jesus failed in all of this the Christians instead ginned up this idea that "when their messiah came among them, they knew him not." This idea was further ginned to include the idea that Jesus would have two comings, the first where the Jews didn't recognize him and a 2nd Coming way off in the distant future where they would finally be forced to recognize him as Messiah. As future prophecies have no way to be proved all this turned out to be so wacky to the Jews as to be totally unbelievable to them.
Cool, where can I find this verifiable evidence that there is no God?
Then I need to ask the question, is evidence considered to be proof, beyond the shadow of any doubt?
As for the topic, if it isn't in the New Testament whatever it is is not a teaching from Jesus, or an interpretation of his teachings by one of his followers.
Isaiah was an Old Testament/Torah prophet. Aside from the history laid down by the Old Testament, and the 10 Commandments, Christians do not use the Old Testament for anything but a reference source.
Whether or not Isaiah predicted the coming of a messiah or not is irrelevant. Jesus Christ IS the messiah for Christians, just as much as Rabbi Schnerson IS the messiah for Lubavitchers.
You just prove the fact that Jesus could not have been the Messiah to Jews, they get it, but you don't.
With your one post you have proven Jesus to be a false prophet who deserved death, and why would the Jew break the Law to follow a false prophet so they too can be deserving of death?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
