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I am aware that 'It was what God wanted' is an easy explanation. Charles Schultz was, to me, quite the philosopher. In one Peanuts strip Lucy Yells at Snoopy "You want to know why your dog-house burned down? Because your Sinned! That's why".
If you are going to look at the Hasmoneans and the all - too- common problems with Kingship and their clearly identifiable demise at the hands of the crafty and power -hungry Herod, and say 'It's was God's punishment because the Hasmoneans took over a position their lineage did not entitle them to (but it didn't stop them winning the war against the Seleucids with god's help apparently - He didn't know they'd take the kingship?), then one can hardly blame the Christians for supposing that the Romans were the Instrument of God in flattening Jerusalem twice (the second time almost literally) and burning the Temple before it was even finished. Even if you disagree with them about what the Jews had done to annoy God so much.
You don't see a problem with the way this kind os easy explanation causes more difficulties than it solves?
There is nothing easy about taking responsibility for our thought speech action feelings, and how we treat others, and living a life of integrity.
Which is why so many people avoid doing so. There is nothing easy about therapy and recovery which is why so many people avoid it and make excuses instead, blame others instead.
Yes, Dear lady. That's all very fine. But the thread is more about why Jews do mot believe (I suppose that translates as 'Do not accept as the Messiah') in Jesus. Given that they do not believe that Jesus was 'Hashem' or even Shekinah any more than I do, the discussion would tend to be about what the Messiah means in Judaism, who invented the idea and should know what it means better than the Christians.
Yes, Dear lady. That's all very fine. But the thread is more about why Jews do mot believe (I suppose that translates as 'Do not accept as the Messiah') in Jesus. Given that they do not believe that Jesus was 'Hashem' or even Shekinah any more than I do, the discussion would tend to be about what the Messiah means in Judaism, who invented the idea and should know what it means better than the Christians.
We do. And that is what we are discussing. An essential piece of that is our behavior in the here and now. Beliefs can not be separated from behavior. How we behave shapes the conditions of the arrival of Moshiach.
"good will and the commitment to do right mean nothing without action"
frin Pirkei Avot 1:17:
"Shimon his son [the son of Rabban Gamliel] said: All my life I have been raised among the Sages, and I have not found anything better for oneself than silence. Study is not the primary thing but action."
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-26-2018 at 08:11 AM..
Sorry Tzaph, but I cannot agree. Our behavior in the here and now as social animals is nothing to do with why Jews don't believe in Jesus, the Jewish concept of the messiah, the Christian concept of the messiah or indeed the reasons for belief in any religion at all. Social behavior and the reasons for it has long since ceased to be needfully related to any religion and, for my money, might be better Not related to to it, and it is just too far off topic for me to touch it with a Roman auxiliary's assegai.
Our local Legionary Museum. it is generally assumed that Pilate had Roman Legionaries. I gather that he had Auxiliaries, who were Non Romans who had joined the army in order to gain citizenship after 25 years service. They served as skimishers and meat -shield troops frankly to soak up the crap while the legionaries came up behind. At the battle of Medway which was the pivotal battle in the roman conquest of Britain, the Auxiliaries won without the need for the legionaries to get into the battle at all (or I may be thinking of the battle of Camulodunum) Note that they had oval shields, not the curved legionary shield. They had chain mail - more expensive than the cheap and easy segmented armour of the legionary, and they carried stabbing spears, not the legionary pilum that were thrown, one and two at the enemy before the charge.
Pilate had 500 Auxiliaries in the Antonia fortress on the north of the temple, and 500 at Caesarea. he would bring them all together to keep an eye out for disturbances patrolling the galleries above the court of the women at festival times.
if so, the depiction of the soldiers to the crucifixion is always wrong, even if the films ever gets the Roman uniform correct. Life of Brian actually does neither, but it's a comedy after all. But it does hit on some nice points about anti-Roman rebels and mass crucifixions (Spartacus style 'the even spoof "I'm Spartacus") whether or not intended.
One of my favourite scenes (other like Pilate with a speech impediment, which I find hackneyed, sorry)
Sorry Tzaph, but I cannot agree. Our behavior in the here and now as social animals is nothing to do with why Jews don't believe in Jesus, the Jewish concept of the messiah, the Christian concept of the messiah or indeed the reasons for belief in any religion at all. Social behavior and the reasons for it has long since ceased to be needfully related to any religion and, for my money, might be better Not related to to it, and it is just too far off topic for me to touch it....
that you don't see the connection between religion and a person's behavior in the here and now, demonstrates that you do not understand a very basic function, central purpose, and primary importance of religion in a person's life.
Judaism does not "follow" other religions for the same reason a person does not cheat on their spouse, and is faithful to their marriage vows of fidelity.
Religion is a path to God, a way to connect with God and be in relationship with God.
Judaism is that path for Jews, therefore other paths are not needed and are not relevant.
A person committed to the sanctity of their marriage has no interest in those who try to get them to sleep around.
that you don't see the connection between religion and a person's behavior in the here and now, demonstrates that you do not understand a very basic function, central purpose, and primary importance of religion in a person's life.
Judaism does not "follow" other religions for the same reason a person does not cheat on their spouse, and is faithful to their marriage vows of fidelity.
Religion is a path to God, a way to connect with God and be in relationship with God.
Judaism is that path for Jews, therefore other paths are not needed and are not relevant.
A person committed to the sanctity of their marriage has no interest in those who try to get them to sleep around.
Which is why I am not interested in discussion of the matter, do not consider it relevant and consider it off topic.
'Because the religion says so' is not in itself what makes an action good or indeed bad. It is human morality, and that changes. It may be that rather more open attitudes to sexuality could be a good thing, perhaps not.
But that is a matter of research and discussion and perhaps social change. it is, for me, at any rate. Not 'The religion says so, and it is Right because it says so".
This is the problem with Absolute morality based on religion and it is the problem with religion. One of the many.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-26-2018 at 12:07 PM..
So you aren't familiar with Jewish history or culture.
Your 'pedigree' determined where one could go in the Temple, determined what professions you could enter, and who you could marry without consequences, among other things. The comment on Cyrus is part of the historical record, as is the Jews he 'saved' returning, only to repress other Jews who weren't exiled, who also apparently didn't suit Cyrus, either, since he supported the exiles, the Samaritans come to mind here, as they are in the NT; there were others. Much of the post-exilic Fun and Games is in the OT itself.
Maybe you should blame those returning anti-Semitic Babylonian Jews and OT writers, instead of just knee-jerk reactionary herd following. You might learn a few things from this interview with a conservative Rabbi:
You want to inform yourself of certain Jewish sub-cultures, like some of the new 'Chassidics' ,like the settlers, who like Islam better than Christians, and are about as 'enlightened as the average neo-Nazi, whom they share a kinship with; they now make up over 10% of Jews, via birthrates mostly:
And at least read the leading Israeli newspapers once in a while; they post an amazing array of 'anti-semitic' stuff, with titles like a Jerusalem Post's article entitled 40 Rabbis: Jews Shouldn't Rent, Sell Homes to Gentiles
You might also check out an article at New Republic, where a reformed Rabbi calls for Jews to stop using the Holocaust as an excuse to avoid addressing their own racism.
Whether one agrees or not, the issues are being discussed, and most should just ignore the 'Holocaust Card' some imbecile may play to shut down discussions.
Also make yourself aware that the IDF is now allowing radical racist cults into the IDF now, so the next time you hear about some 'atrocity' or other, it may not just be just another fake news propaganda story ... and this is of concern to the U.S., as a backer of Israel. Be careful of which Jewish groups you support, with donations or whatever.
Again. looks the same as I said before, but there are no politics in here, I can't comment on politics without getting a time out.
I just don't think you know what you are talking about, or should I say, you don't want to admit the simple facts of the matter.
Gentiles have been persecuting and killing Israel since they were a people, and the world is a witness to 2000 continuous years of Anti-Semitism leading up to a third holocaust where a third of their people were wiped out, and then you say,'' O, They play the holocaust card. Tried Genocide over and over by Gentiles, and you wonder why Jews are precautious?
WE have 2000 years of history watching Gentiles persecute, and killing Jews with countries STILL calling out for their Genocide, and if we were discussing any other people, you would be all behind them, but because they are Jews.......
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 09-26-2018 at 01:01 PM..
Which is why I am not interested in discussion of the matter, do not consider it relevant and consider it off topic.
'Because the religion says so' is not in itself what makes an action good or indeed bad. It is human morality, and that changes. It may be that rather more open attitudes to sexuality could be a good thing, perhaps not.
But that is a matter of research and discussion and perhaps social change. it is, for me, at any rate. Not 'The religion says so, and it is Right because it says so".
This is the problem with Absolute morality based on religion and it is the problem with religion. One of the many.
but it IS relevant to why Jews do not practice other religions. That IS the topic. integrity is very tangible and real. commitment to nurturing a deeply meaningful relationship is very tangible and real.
Those are not "history" or "ideas" or "beliefs"
They require our participation and engagement.
That's what a relationship is. Treating it casually, engaging in promiscuity, ignoring it are destructive to the relationship.
can you honestly not see how commitment to a relationship is vital and important and essential for its flourishing?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-26-2018 at 12:49 PM..
but it IS relevant to why Jews do not practice other religions. That IS the topic. integrity is very tangible and real. commitment to nurturing a deeply meaningful relationship is very tangible and real.
Those are not "history" or "ideas" or "beliefs"
They require our participation and engagement.
That's what a relationship is. Treating it casually, engaging in promiscuity, ignoring it are destructive to the relationship.
can you honestly not see how commitment to a relationship is vital and important and essential for its flourishing?
I don't think so. It is why Jews do not believe in Jesus. Sure - that is why they don't follow 'another religion' but specifically related to the claims in Christianity, not your views on Jewish morality.
You can of course post what you like, but if it doesn't interest me, I won't respond You can't make me. And it will be up (or down) to the Mods to decide whether to let it go, or not.
But one last response. commitment to a Relationship would serve to keep it going - even when both parties have had enough. Because the religion says so. And that would always be a good thing, would it?
I'm surprised (but not too surprised ) That the thread seems to have come to a halt. I would have thought that the Jewish lobby here would have has some observations on why Christian ideas of messianism, is in error, if not some lively discussion of my "Special" theory (as distinct from my "General" theory which is not so speculative but is based on pretty unarguable gospel -text analysis).
But this does seem to happen.
"Special" (Pet) theory. John the baptist starts a subversion movement (probably messianic). Jesus and maybe a few others go to join him.
Antipas arrests John. Jesus and co scamper back to Galilee. John is executed. Jesus decides to take over the mission.
Jesus and co go on a recruiting drive to a zealot camp in Bethsaida. Announces his Messianic mission and gets a couple of thousand "Galileans".
Travels to John's old recruiting place (not too far from Qumran) then sets out for Bethany, where a supper is given, Jesus is anointed by his wife (or she ought to be) and a donkey tethered ready for the morning.
Disguised as a Hoshana procession (so it's Sukkhot, not Passover, or it wouldn't work) Jesus (deliberately fulfilling prophecy - the only time he ever did) gets into the temple and takes it over. There's some fighting, and Jesus and some of the 'Galileans' are taken (I suspect Luke knew of this event which was in Josephus, but it got removed by the church Luke 13.1)
Jesus interrogated by Ananus and then nailed up. No trial, Pilate knows exactly what Jesus did.
If the Gospels contain more fact than it might, Jesus was gotten off the cross alive. If it's all made up, he probably died. It doesn't matter, the messianic spirit went back to heaven to come again in the next messianic liberation effort.
That, and not a solid body resurrection, is what the disciples believed. And Paul supports this by his list of appearances to the apostles (I Cor.15.5) being on all fours with Jesus appearing in his own head. And Paul of course adapts Jewish God -worship to appeal to his gentile fellow citizens, thus 'Christianity' is born. The rest is history.
And not a word or comment. "This is not what we were always told, so we don't want to hear it"? Or am I talking utter balls and everyone is too polite to say so? Why have I "Terminated" yet another thread?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-27-2018 at 07:29 AM..
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You can't make me. And it will be up (or down) to the Mods to decide whether to let it go, or not. 
) That the thread seems to have come to a halt. I would have thought that the Jewish lobby here would have has some observations on why Christian ideas of messianism, is in error, if not some lively discussion of my "Special" theory (as distinct from my "General" theory which is not so speculative but is based on pretty unarguable gospel -text analysis).