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Of course, but TRANSPONDER has made very clear that he isn't interested in understanding what other people post and that instead he's solely interested in posting worthless objections to whatever doesn't perfectly fit his own personal, black-and-white worldview.
Of course you did yourself no favours by condemning my intransigence before i even responded. I don't mind at all admitting that I misunderstood your post. It gives me a chance to witdraw what I said, and go on another tack - why I use self -deprecating terms about atheism.I'm glad that you gave me the chance to explain. I've got so used to doing it that I forgot that I might need to.
I’ll let others respond for themselves. I wasn’t suggesting any prescription. I was merely responding to Arq seeming to think that the post in question was saying that atheists were described by the 3rd definition. All I was saying is thats not how I read it but rather I read it as saying many make that assumption.
Ahh, I see that. My reading of that section was that buu is arguing that many do think that, and that it is our responsibility as atheists not to argue the point but to embrace it and change our label or beliefs to avoid it. That we have no right to try to challenge other peoples perception of atheists as evil. That's what I have a problem with. Just because many people think a think that is false and perjorative, doesn't mean I am required to act as though it is true.
Ahh, I see that. My reading of that section was that buu is arguing that many do think that, and that it is our responsibility as atheists not to argue the point but to embrace it and change our label or beliefs to avoid it. That we have no right to try to challenge other peoples perception of atheists as evil. That's what I have a problem with. Just because many people think a think that is false and perjorative, doesn't mean I am required to act as though it is true.
-NoCapo
I think he was saying be prepared to offer an alternative view in a way that is comprehensible to those people and takes into account their very different view of human nature if it matters to you to change their perception. But I’ll let him answer for himself.
I’ll let others respond for themselves. I wasn’t suggesting any prescription. I was merely responding to Arq seeming to think that the post in question was saying that atheists were described by the 3rd definition. All I was saying is thats not how I read it but rather I read it as saying many make that assumption.
I think he was saying be prepared to offer an alternative view in a way that is comprehensible to those people and takes into account their very different view of human nature if it matters to you to change their perception. But I’ll let him answer for himself.
Can you boil that down for me? If someone believes that atheists are evil and enemies of God, then the only way I can make them understand I am not those things is how? What do you suggest? If a moral, decent, upright atheist is in comprehensible to someone, then you seem to be indicating that I should lie to them, or at the very least live by own mission, or artfully deceive them into thinking that I am I Theus like they are so that they will not hate me. Is that what you mean or do you have something else in mind?
Can you boil that down for me? If someone believes that atheists are evil and enemies of God, then the only way I can make them understand I am not those things is how? What do you suggest? If a moral, decent, upright atheist is in comprehensible to someone, then you seem to be indicating that I should lie to them, or at the very least live by own mission, or artfully deceive them into thinking that I am I Theus like they are so that they will not hate me. Is that what you mean or do you have something else in mind?
-NoCapo
I don’t have a suggestion. I havent figured out even how to communicate that because I discarded religion and don’t accept that God punishes people, doesn't mean I’m an “unbeliever” who just wants to sin.
I’m simply conveying to you how I read bUU’s post. And if he can explain how to communicate with such people in an effective way, I’m all ears.
Can you boil that down for me? If someone believes that atheists are evil and enemies of God, then the only way I can make them understand I am not those things is how? What do you suggest? If a moral, decent, upright atheist is incomprehensible to someone, then you seem to be indicating that I should lie to them, or at the very least live by own mission, or artfully deceive them into thinking that I am I Theus like they are so that they will not hate me. Is that what you mean or do you have something else in mind?
-NoCapo
A majority of theists, especially Fundamentalists, believe our purpose is to be OBEDIENT to God. They see disobedience to God as the sin. If you disbelieve in God you are automatically disobedient to God and therefore a sinful, evil person. Many freely acknowledge that you can be a decent and kind person but they do not connect that with God at all. That is the major corruption that the "precepts and doctrines of men" have perpetrated on the Gospel of agape love. They have made it about what you BELIEVE ABOUT God and NOT your state of mind, your character, your attitude toward life, and how you actually live. Changing that is a Herculean task.
It's a good list, but there are belief systems that belie most of those items.
For example, in #3, the word "being" precludes myriad belief systems that don't personify divinity, and the concept of "control" denies even the Clock-maker analogy that some folks' belief system relies on. #5 isn't a requirement but rather solely a common characteristic among some of the older belief systems.
I think #2 is safe, and #4 is broad enough that it won't violate too many belief systems. For #1, I'm not sure if it is a requirement of belief systems or rather just a requirement for something to be acknowledged as such.
Bingo on the bolded. Recently I said on here that even though I myself have personified God and will again, my concept of what I call God is not really a Person. I've wondered if we have to personify God in order to feel that we can connect.
Bingo on the bolded. Recently I said on here that even though I myself have personified God and will again, my concept of what I call God is not really a Person. I've wondered if we have to personify God in order to feel that we can connect.
Can you boil that down for me? If someone believes that atheists are evil and enemies of God, then the only way I can make them understand I am not those things is how? What do you suggest? If a moral, decent, upright atheist is in comprehensible to someone, then you seem to be indicating that I should lie to them, or at the very least live by own mission, or artfully deceive them into thinking that I am I Theus like they are so that they will not hate me. Is that what you mean or do you have something else in mind?
-NoCapo
I still feel that the best way is to play it straight and not be tempted by these people to fake it in order to make it sound persuasive.
I believe that people in the end are smart enough to understand straight talk and do want to believe that they have good reasons for believing what they believe. All the time they have their fingers in their ears, they can't "Hear" anyway, so keep talking until they are curious enough to unstop their ears.
That's even without the conviction that the intent is to try to talk us into toning it down, if we can't be silenced completely. That's the intent behind everything the believers post - shut us up, whatever it takes. Don't let them sucker you, friends; keep talking to the ones wiling to listen.
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