Do you feel your heart is wicked? Born that way? I don't. (church, quote)
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Do you have to teach your kids to lie, to be disobedient, to be rebellious, and to be selfish?
No. It comes naturally to them.
All living beings are born selfish. If their needs are not met, they die. But hatred needs to be taught and none are "better" teachers than religionists.
I don't think yours is or mine .
We can get distracted by pretty things ...as children we can get hurt and push another down in the sand box...
but, wicked'?
I think your essence is pure and innocent. Mine, too.
We go astray sometimes, not always..and our conscience gets to us.
Some in prison have been so wounded by others that their thinking is clouded with their pain that has turned into anger.
But, inside deep in their hardened heart is still a pure little kid..
Note: This isn't in the Christian section so I think we all know Bible quotes.
The question is clearly do YOU think...YOU....not what someone else thought and wrote.
Are we weak? Sure...but , born wicked? That's the question here.
Thanks.
As a youngster I was raised to be a Christian, and I was taught that I was born into a sinful world. As a result I was coated in the sin of being born. But once I realize how silly the Christian claims I was being taught are, I was washed clean of the sin of being born, and was free of all self loathing. Now I was free to create my OWN sins. I never did though, really. I have managed to make it through life without any heavy weight of guilt or remorse hanging about my neck. Christians like to say that they are not perfect, just forgiven. Christians are apparently inherently wicked, and prone to do sinful things that they will eventually need to be forgiven for. As an atheist with no avenue to being forgiven promised to me, I simply avoided doing anything that might cause me to feel guilty.
Do you have to teach your kids to lie, to be disobedient, to be rebellious, and to be selfish?
No. It comes naturally to them.
Primate nature. We also have empathy, though it has to be taught. Or brought out, perhaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysgenic
I'm your huckleberry. I'll 'take you on' if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.
Any time you like,
P.s - I'll give you this - the Jesus story, apart from doubting (counter -intuitively) that miracles can happen, the story looks soundly recorded and attested by eye witnesses. Taking ME on is a bit unrepresentative as I specialise in filletting Jesus' reputation. I'll be glad to discuss it with you, but I had in mind rather that me fellow damned and depraved could rip you apart.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-16-2018 at 11:52 AM..
I don't think yours is or mine .
We can get distracted by pretty things ...as children we can get hurt and push another down in the sand box...
but, wicked'?
I think your essence is pure and innocent. Mine, too.
We go astray sometimes, not always..and our conscience gets to us.
Some in prison have been so wounded by others that their thinking is clouded with their pain that has turned into anger.
But, inside deep in their hardened heart is still a pure little kid..
Note: This isn't in the Christian section so I think we all know Bible quotes.
The question is clearly do YOU think...YOU....not what someone else thought and wrote.
Are we weak? Sure...but , born wicked? That's the question here.
Thanks.
I think your opinion is very popular these days, especially among people who follow a more liberal version of religion. I very strongly disagree with it.
One problem is we don't know exactly what you mean by the word "wicked." It is obviously a matter of degree. Evil acts don't have to be physical, they are more often verbal and psychological.
Another big problem is that we are not conscious of most of what goes on in our minds. We tend to block our wicked thoughts, and as a result we might think that all our thoughts and feelings are kind and loving. They most definitely are not.
To survive in this world we must compete, we must have an ego. We can't love everyone indiscriminately, we can't trust everyone. Try it and see what happens.
A minimal amount of toughness is required for survival. And there is no hard line between toughness and wickedness.
You probably aren't aware of Jung's shadow psychology. It's pretty much in agreement with the Christian view that we are naturally sinful. And I think Jung was right. If we deny our shadow, it gets stronger. The wickedest people are the ones who see themselves as perfectly good.
Children are not always nice to each other, they know how to hate, and it does not have to be taught to them. Knowing how to hate is part of our basic survival skills.
Yes of course, hatred and wickedness can go way beyond healthy toughness. All things have to be in balance for optimum health, and things can always get out of balance.
As a youngster I was raised to be a Christian, and I was taught that I was born into a sinful world. As a result I was coated in the sin of being born. But once I realize how silly the Christian claims I was being taught are, I was washed clean of the sin of being born, and was free of all self loathing. Now I was free to create my OWN sins. I never did though, really. I have managed to make it through life without any heavy weight of guilt or remorse hanging about my neck. Christians like to say that they are not perfect, just forgiven. Christians are apparently inherently wicked, and prone to do sinful things that they will eventually need to be forgiven for. As an atheist with no avenue to being forgiven promised to me, I simply avoided doing anything that might cause me to feel guilty.
I don't know. Even the deconverts attest to a feeling of smugness as well though having it Right. But, from what I read from the deconvert -stories, they were never good enough. you could never be good enough and you HAD to be forgiven. And even then I keep hearing that you can't count on it. You can never sit back and say "I'm Clear". You have to keep working at both being good (which seems to mean being obedient) and repentance for never being Good enough, and, while we hear all the time from the Faithful (rather smugly) that they are indeed worthless sinners, deserving of eternal torment, but they are going to be ok because their Faith hath gotten them Forgiveness, the doctrine that Nobody can count on being saved, and the teror that they hadn't done enough seemed always to be present.
No way are we "born wicked"? Anybody who has held a newborn baby in his arms should know that.
Newborn babies have no power, they are completely helpless. They have no survival skills. Anyone who is completely powerless and unable to survive on their own will seem perfectly innocent. They could not hurt anyone even if they wanted to.
And every powerful person, no matter how good their intentions, will cause harm to someone.
No, we are not born perfectly innocent, we are born helpless. No, we don't learn to be wicked. If a child stayed perfectly innocent and loving he would not survive.
No way are we "born wicked"? Anybody who has held a newborn baby in his arms should know that.
Havent' spent much time around toddlers? I believe it was Paul Washer that said a toddler would gladly rip your arm off to get to your shiny watch if only he/she could when they were in the midst of one of their temper tantrums. Yes, babies are cute and cuddly...but anyone who has ever seen a child melt down on the floor of a grocery store because they didn't get the right juice box realizes total depravity is a reality.
All living beings are born selfish. If their needs are not met, they die. But hatred needs to be taught and none are "better" teachers than religionists.
Hatred is simply the feeling of not liking something. If you love everything, you will soon eat poison and die.
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Primate nature. We also have empathy, though it has to be taught. Or brought out, perhaps.
