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You are presuming soul/consciousness exists after death? Why?
Fair questions, but I would have stopped the first one after "...exists." Why would we presume there is a soul and/or consciousness that are separate from the physical body, be it living or dead?
Drug induced experiences do not confirm what happens after death. Intensive meditation can emulate transcendence experiences, but that doesn't confirm what happens after death. Why?
Because in neither case, your not dead. The synapses that are released by both circumstances may well produce a level of consciousness beyond that which most people normally experience, and I don't doubt that for a minute, but, it's not death. Confirmation biases do not confirm anything other than what we are preconditioned to accept. We are all subject to that, including me.
Spiritual experiences are deeply and profoundly personal and impactful. I find it immensely spiritual knowing that when I die, that I will be able to provide for some other living organism. I find it immensely spiritual knowing that part of me lives on in my grandchildren, and will in their grandchildren, by the DNA I have passed on. I find it immensely spiritual that in the same manner, I am part of what my forefathers and mothers were, and that my DNA I have in me comes from eons of generations before me, including a higher percentage than 98% of the population, of Neanderthal ancestry. I know that some of my instincts, like yours and everyone else's are as a result of the DNA we got from our forefathers; concern of the dark in pure wilderness, attraction to the safety and comfort of fire, our fight or flight instinct, and many more.
That is a spirituality that can all be scientifically shown.
But there still is one hole, and that is the question, What is Consciousness?
I don't know, and neither does anyone else. Maybe some day we all will know. Is a dog conscious? Most would say yes. What about a fish? Probably. What about a lower form, like an amoeba? I suspect yes. What about plants? Well, a recent study shows maybe they do have conscious. We all know plant roots migrate towards the source of water, but they also move towards the SOUND of water?
How did they "sense" that sound? Are they conscious? And if they are, how far down the plant family does one travel to explore that?
It's a mystery for now. An intriguing one, but we can't jump to the conclusion that this consciousness exists in inanimate objects, or that it continues after a death. We just don't know, but we can't assume, no matter how much we may want it to be. That's like the god of the gaps argument. It doesn't hold water.
never said it was a confirmation of anything. Only a belief. Sure it could all just be in your head. Not sure how you would explain Ego-death and having your consciousness shout out of your body like a rocket ship into another dimension. Seeing things that the human brain cannot explain and has never seen before. How do you describe the indescribable?
Exactly, there is no evidence of what happens after you die.
True - but there is also no evidence that there is anything to evidence. When people say there is no evidence of what happens after death - they are often assuming there is something that happens after death. I do not share that assumption. Certainly not in the way people make that assumption generally seem to mean it.
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Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Exactly, your BELIEF is that there is no afterlife. Or are you saying you know for a FACT there is no afterlife?
I see no benefit in speaking in absolutes. So I will borrow from another poster who said it better than I so I stole it
We do not understand human consciousness - awareness - subjectivity - or experience 100%. We do not fully understand how it arises or how it functions. But we do understand a lot of it. There is data there. Incomplete data - but still a lot of data.
Now 100% of that data links consciousness and a working human brain. 0% of that data shows consciousness working in any way separate from the brain - and certainly not following the death of it.
So we can get pedantic about words like "fact" and "belief" if you want and sit around like the Big Leboski saying "That is just like your opinion man".
Or we could put both words aside and simply acknowledge the fact that one idea has 100% of the evidence going for it and so far the other has 0% of it. Pedantry is not going to change that reality for you.
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Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Yes based on ayahuasca/DMT experiences.
I have had similar experiences - and I do not come to your conclusions. Anecdote is not evidence either - especially if we have essentially the same anecdote but different conclusions.
I would be _very_ surprised if you describe an experience of that type that you had - which I have not.
Further you keep trotting out a variation of the same line in every post. Such as - "Again you are describing what happens on this physical earth, not what happens to your soul/consciousness after you die."
The irony here is that you appear to miss that this applies to you too. You having an experience on DMT for example is a desciption of you on this physical earth - having an experience in your physical brain - due to a physical substance. Nothing to do with death or after you die.
So perhaps trot your mantras at a mirror rather than us - otherwise you are going to end up acting like you think it is one rule for you - and one for everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Not sure how you would explain Ego-death and having your consciousness shout out of your body like a rocket ship into another dimension. Seeing things that the human brain cannot explain and has never seen before. How do you describe the indescribable?
The problem there is that there is no good reason on offer to think the consciousness _has_ "shot out of your body" or gone to "another dimension". So far with things like DMT there is only reason to think that yuo have had new experiences - and you felt _like_ you shot out of your body and went to other dimensions.
Feeling like X happened and thinking X actually happened are two massively different things. And nothing other than your belief is being used to leap from A to B there.
Human brains experiencing things they never did before and can not explain is not all that uncommon either. For example people with Synaesthesia often report "alien colours". Meaning their synaesthesia makes them experience colours they never see or find in the real world.
Also the "alien hand" experiment which I also learned about on this forum is a great one. Using nothing more than a feather - a fake hand - and a large square of cardboard it is possible to make yourself - or someone else - feel absolutely 100% convinced the fake hand is their real hand. Usually in under 5 minutes. A minor Out Of Body Experience in other words. People who have that experience find it hard to explain or describe - and they have also never experienced it's like before.
So new experience people find hard to describe appears to be nothing more than just that - though I can understand why some of them are so surprising that they compel people like yourself and random obsessives with mysticism to want to make things up to explain them.
they were looking at UFO abductions. they had one thing in common: very good imaginations. which we all know can be a good thing. but it has some side effects.
It's funny how you only started hearing things about ufos after science fiction books and movies, after that ufos were everywhere.
That's certainly true of Greys. Before Close encounters, there were more different kinds of Alien UFO cabin crew than Christian denominations, but after Spielberg - nobody ever saw anything but Greys. The pre - 50's UFO scene ..is very complicated. A but like the Shroud and associated hanky history. Complicated.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-10-2018 at 12:50 PM..
There is no good reason to assume that there is a god, afterlife, or reincarnation.
I tend to think there's a Supreme Being of some kind but I'm skeptical about this beautiful afterlife that so many NDE'ers describe. It all sounds too good to be true and as you know when it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Makes me think of that short conversation with God:
Quote:
Q. God, why did you create the universe?
A. I don't know. I suppose I didn't have anything better to do.
True - but there is also no evidence that there is anything to evidence. When people say there is no evidence of what happens after death - they are often assuming there is something that happens after death. I do not share that assumption. Certainly not in the way people make that assumption generally seem to mean it.
That something that happens after death could be nothing. Either something happens or doesn't. We don't know if something happens or does not happen. Nobody knows.
Quote:
I see no benefit in speaking in absolutes. So I will borrow from another poster who said it better than I so I stole it
We do not understand human consciousness - awareness - subjectivity - or experience 100%. We do not fully understand how it arises or how it functions. But we do understand a lot of it. There is data there. Incomplete data - but still a lot of data.
Now 100% of that data links consciousness and a working human brain. 0% of that data shows consciousness working in any way separate from the brain - and certainly not following the death of it.
So we can get pedantic about words like "fact" and "belief" if you want and sit around like the Big Leboski saying "That is just like your opinion man".
Or we could put both words aside and simply acknowledge the fact that one idea has 100% of the evidence going for it and so far the other has 0% of it. Pedantry is not going to change that reality for you.
That's my point. We don't understand human consciousness so anything that happens whether it's nothing or something is nothing more than a "BELIEF".
Quote:
I have had similar experiences - and I do not come to your conclusions. Anecdote is not evidence either - especially if we have essentially the same anecdote but different conclusions.
I would be _very_ surprised if you describe an experience of that type that you had - which I have not.
Further you keep trotting out a variation of the same line in every post. Such as - "Again you are describing what happens on this physical earth, not what happens to your soul/consciousness after you die."
The irony here is that you appear to miss that this applies to you too. You having an experience on DMT for example is a desciption of you on this physical earth - having an experience in your physical brain - due to a physical substance. Nothing to do with death or after you die.
So perhaps trot your mantras at a mirror rather than us - otherwise you are going to end up acting like you think it is one rule for you - and one for everyone else.
Exactly what experiences have you had? My comment on your last sentence is you cannot make that assumption until you actually experience it for yourself.
Quote:
The problem there is that there is no good reason on offer to think the consciousness _has_ "shot out of your body" or gone to "another dimension". So far with things like DMT there is only reason to think that yuo have had new experiences - and you felt _like_ you shot out of your body and went to other dimensions.
Feeling like X happened and thinking X actually happened are two massively different things. And nothing other than your belief is being used to leap from A to B there.
Human brains experiencing things they never did before and can not explain is not all that uncommon either. For example people with Synaesthesia often report "alien colours". Meaning their synaesthesia makes them experience colours they never see or find in the real world.
Also the "alien hand" experiment which I also learned about on this forum is a great one. Using nothing more than a feather - a fake hand - and a large square of cardboard it is possible to make yourself - or someone else - feel absolutely 100% convinced the fake hand is their real hand. Usually in under 5 minutes. A minor Out Of Body Experience in other words. People who have that experience find it hard to explain or describe - and they have also never experienced it's like before.
So new experience people find hard to describe appears to be nothing more than just that - though I can understand why some of them are so surprising that they compel people like yourself and random obsessives with mysticism to want to make things up to explain them.
It is rather amusing reading someone try to describe an experience for which they have never experienced. It is akin to listening to a virgin describe the experience of intimacy, love and sex. Maybe after you try it you can comment intelligently on the experience.
Again what I have stated is nothing more than a "BELIEF" of what may happen after you die. The experience could be nothing more than just inside my brain and my belief could be wrong.
That something that happens after death could be nothing. Either something happens or doesn't. We don't know if something happens or does not happen. Nobody knows. That's my point. We don't understand human consciousness so anything that happens whether it's nothing or something is nothing more than a "BELIEF".
But as I said in the post you are replying to - the phrase "nobody knows" can suggest we do not know anything at all. Which simply is not true. While our knowledge of consciousness is incomplete it is not empty. And not one piece of what we do know shows consciousness working without a brain. Everything we do know links the two.
So while we do not "know" what happens after death is pedantically a true statement - a more accurate and less misleading statement is to say "Everything we currently do know suggests nothing happens after death and consciousness puts the lights out when the brain stops. Nothing we currently know at this time suggests otherwise. Even a little bit".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Exactly what experiences have you had? My comment on your last sentence is you cannot make that assumption until you actually experience it for yourself.
It is rather amusing reading someone try to describe an experience for which they have never experienced. It is akin to listening to a virgin describe the experience of intimacy, love and sex. Maybe after you try it you can comment intelligently on the experience.
I have explored the altering of consciousness in many ways large and small. Through meditation - drugs - sensory deprivations - and more. I have experienced every experience I have heard other people describe. Like feeling like you are interacting with a consciousness - or collection of consciousness - outside your own. Like you are seeing objects of colours or feeling emotions - that do not occur in every day experience. Like experiencing the sensation of being outside your own body. The dissolution of the ego and the cessation of thinking of one as the thinker of ones own thoughts so much as a mere observer of them. To the oft cited experience of being interconnected with everything and everything interconnected with oneself. And the deification of the go where under the right stimulus one feels not just that there is a god - but one is oneself god. And much more. I would be here in a long long long post if I listed them all.
So you can moan things like "you cannot make that assumption until you actually experience it for yourself" at me or just - like you do above - assert based on nothing that I have not had these experiences just because it suits your narrative to make that assumption.
But that is just white noise until such time as you establish there is some experience you have had - that is markedly different from any I have had. And thus far I have seen not even the tiniest indication this is the case. But it is a nice way for you to stack the deck isn't it? You can make up whatever you like off the back of experiences _you_ can not demonstrate you actually had. And if you come into contact with someone who has had the kind of experiences you describe - you can just pretend they haven't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Again what I have stated is nothing more than a "BELIEF" of what may happen after you die. The experience could be nothing more than just inside my brain and my belief could be wrong.
Well so far every evidence is that the experience was inside your brain -and no evidence so far suggests it is indicative of any actual reality in the way you describe. I repeat what I wrote before that your own mantra applies here when you write "Again you are describing what happens on this physical earth" - given that is exactly what _you_ have been doing as much as the person you throw the mantra reflexively at.
The physical you had an experience in your physical brain due to the introduction of a physical drug. It falls directly and wholly under the purview of your own mantra here.
That something that happens after death could be nothing. Either something happens or doesn't. We don't know if something happens or does not happen. Nobody knows.
Work done on NDEs tells us that they are products of the cultural beliefs of the person having them. This is evidence that they are a product of the human mind trying to understand a situation that is not normal.
This is not belief, this is actual scientific evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
That's my point. We don't understand human consciousness so anything that happens whether it's nothing or something is nothing more than a "BELIEF".
We understand that all the evidence points to consciousness being a product of the human brain. So once the brain is dead, no more consciousness. This is almost a century of evidence. To dismiss this as 'belief' is either ignorance or self delusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Exactly what experiences have you had? My comment on your last sentence is you cannot make that assumption until you actually experience it for yourself.
It is rather amusing reading someone try to describe an experience for which they have never experienced. It is akin to listening to a virgin describe the experience of intimacy, love and sex. Maybe after you try it you can comment intelligently on the experience.
The contradictory experiences other people have is again evidence they are a product of the human brain, and therefore subject to cognitive bias. Which is why only the religious use experience as evidence, because it supports what they want to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Again what I have stated is nothing more than a "BELIEF" of what may happen after you die. The experience could be nothing more than just inside my brain and my belief could be wrong.
All the evidence points to your "BELIEF" being wrong.
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