Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My mother pass away last December , and she was a Christian , and Jesus Holy Spirit told here that He has got her soul , and she will be with Jesus ...... So when God`s spirit tells you what would believe ?
My late aunt use to talk to Jesus regularly. One day, because, he said, she was his special beloved, he told her the exact date and time of his return. So my aunt and and about half of their church congregation sat out in the church parking lot in lawn chairs on the appointed morning to watch Jesus return in triumph in the sky with his heavenly host. But Jesus stood her up.
Apparently sometimes "Jesus Holy Spirit " LIES! Or...perhaps there is a general tendency among people who have conversations with invisible friends to hear what they want to hear.
But as I said in the post you are replying to - the phrase "nobody knows" can suggest we do not know anything at all. Which simply is not true. While our knowledge of consciousness is incomplete it is not empty. And not one piece of what we do know shows consciousness working without a brain. Everything we do know links the two.
So while we do not "know" what happens after death is pedantically a true statement - a more accurate and less misleading statement is to say "Everything we currently do know suggests nothing happens after death and consciousness puts the lights out when the brain stops. Nothing we currently know at this time suggests otherwise. Even a little bit".
Not true, we do not know for a fact that the consciousness is confined solely to the brain.
Quote:
I have explored the altering of consciousness in many ways large and small. Through meditation - drugs - sensory deprivations - and more. I have experienced every experience I have heard other people describe. Like feeling like you are interacting with a consciousness - or collection of consciousness - outside your own. Like you are seeing objects of colours or feeling emotions - that do not occur in every day experience. Like experiencing the sensation of being outside your own body. The dissolution of the ego and the cessation of thinking of one as the thinker of ones own thoughts so much as a mere observer of them. To the oft cited experience of being interconnected with everything and everything interconnected with oneself. And the deification of the go where under the right stimulus one feels not just that there is a god - but one is oneself god. And much more. I would be here in a long long long post if I listed them all.
So you can moan things like "you cannot make that assumption until you actually experience it for yourself" at me or just - like you do above - assert based on nothing that I have not had these experiences just because it suits your narrative to make that assumption.
But that is just white noise until such time as you establish there is some experience you have had - that is markedly different from any I have had. And thus far I have seen not even the tiniest indication this is the case. But it is a nice way for you to stack the deck isn't it? You can make up whatever you like off the back of experiences _you_ can not demonstrate you actually had. And if you come into contact with someone who has had the kind of experiences you describe - you can just pretend they haven't.
Sorry, but to be frank what you experienced is not even remotely close to a breakthrough on DMT or ayahuasca. Not even in the same league. It's like the difference in the rush you experience jumping off your roof than jumping out of an airplane. How does someone MAKEUP the experience of jumping out of an airplane to someone that has never experienced that rush? Everyone that jumps out of the airplane will have the same experience. Same thing with DMT/Ayahuasca. The experience is not MADE UP. Everyone has the same or very similar experiences. There is no making up the experience because there are other people that can describe similar experiences.
Quote:
Well so far every evidence is that the experience was inside your brain -and no evidence so far suggests it is indicative of any actual reality in the way you describe. I repeat what I wrote before that your own mantra applies here when you write "Again you are describing what happens on this physical earth" - given that is exactly what _you_ have been doing as much as the person you throw the mantra reflexively at.
The physical you had an experience in your physical brain due to the introduction of a physical drug. It falls directly and wholly under the purview of your own mantra here.
There is absolutely no evidence that shows the DMT/Ayahuasca experience only occurs "inside" the brain. If you have this evidence I'd like to see it.
My late aunt use to talk to Jesus regularly. One day, because, he said, she was his special beloved, he told her the exact date and time of his return. So my aunt and and about half of their church congregation sat out in the church parking lot in lawn chairs on the appointed morning to watch Jesus return in triumph in the sky with his heavenly host. But Jesus stood her up.
Apparently sometimes "Jesus Holy Spirit " LIES! Or...perhaps there is a general tendency among people who have conversations with invisible friends to hear what they want to hear.
This must be a regular event in her church because I imagine Jesus tells lots of people in the congregation the exact date and time of his return.
Work done on NDEs tells us that they are products of the cultural beliefs of the person having them. This is evidence that they are a product of the human mind trying to understand a situation that is not normal.
This is not belief, this is actual scientific evidence.
There is no proof that the NDE experience is similar to a DMT/Ayahuasca experience. Many individuals with no belief of the afterlife came out of the experience with their lives completely changed.
Quote:
We understand that all the evidence points to consciousness being a product of the human brain. So once the brain is dead, no more consciousness. This is almost a century of evidence. To dismiss this as 'belief' is either ignorance or self delusion.
Scientists still don't know where consciousness comes from and how it arises. There is no evidence that consciousness is confined to the brain.
Quote:
The contradictory experiences other people have is again evidence they are a product of the human brain, and therefore subject to cognitive bias. Which is why only the religious use experience as evidence, because it supports what they want to be true.
All the evidence points to your "BELIEF" being wrong.
I'm not religious and there are many people who have had these experiences. How do you explain that? There is no evidence at all that says my beliefs are wrong.
This must be a regular event in her church because I imagine Jesus tells lots of people in the congregation the exact date and time of his return.
Yes, there have been numerous assertions over the years concerning the imminent return of Jesus. Some, like my aunt's prediction, only gathered attention among her church congregation. But some have been national news. Like Harold Camping's recent prediction. Camping co-founded Family Radio in 1959, and had millions of devoted listeners.
Wikipedia
Harold Camping
Camping predicted that Jesus Christ would return to Earth on May 21, 2011, whereupon the saved would be taken up to heaven in the rapture, and that there would follow five months of fire, brimstone and plagues on Earth, with millions of people dying each day, culminating on October 21, 2011, with the final destruction of the world. He had previously predicted that Judgment Day would occur on or about September 6, 1994.
His prediction for May 21, 2011 was widely reported, in part because of a large-scale publicity campaign by Family Radio, and it prompted ridicule from atheist organizations and rebuttals from Christian organizations. After May 21 passed without the predicted incidents, Camping said he believed that a "spiritual" judgment had occurred on that date, and that the physical Rapture would occur on October 21, 2011, simultaneously with the final destruction of the universe by God. Except for one press appearance on May 23, 2011, Camping largely avoided press interviews after May 21, particularly after he suffered a stroke in June 2011. After October 21, 2011 passed without the predicted apocalypse, the mainstream media labeled Camping a "false prophet" and commented that his ministry would collapse after the "failed 'Doomsday' prediction". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping
Harold Camping
For all the various prognostications and "the end is near" death wish declarations that have occurred over the years, only one thing has remained unequivocally true and beyond challenge.
Everyone who lived 2,000 years ago DIED, and has remained undeniably and reliably DEAD.
My late aunt use to talk to Jesus regularly. One day, because, he said, she was his special beloved, he told her the exact date and time of his return. So my aunt and and about half of their church congregation sat out in the church parking lot in lawn chairs on the appointed morning to watch Jesus return in triumph in the sky with his heavenly host. But Jesus stood her up.
Apparently sometimes "Jesus Holy Spirit " LIES! Or...perhaps there is a general tendency among people who have conversations with invisible friends to hear what they want to hear.
Why do you take the members of a different religion who don't know or practice the religion of Jesus to try and put their madness upon Jesus?
Jesus comes in the clouds and the clouds are his people, they are his clouds of witness and Jesus told us straight up that the kingdom will not come by eyesight, that we aren't to go out into the wilderness waiting, we are not to expect his return when somebody says,'' Behold, he is coming here or there.''
This is taught over and over in redundancy, that the day of the coming of the Lord is always at hand and those first believers knew that they were progressively walking to the day of his return in their own lives, and the very first verse of Revelation and the last thing said in Revelation is that everything written in Revelation must shortly come to pass for the reader......
Everything Jesus said was cloaked and in parable.
You are taking what modern Christians are saying about a religion that they do not know, and you use this to make false claims about Jesus.
Heck, back in the 70's a lot of people went up on their rooftops waiting for Jesus to return because they don't know what the scriptures mean, because they don't know what they are reading, they think they were literally supposed to go up on a roof to wait when it has nothing to do with going up on a roof.....
People have been predicting the day of a Messiah for centuries, the same people who can't even name the 7 feasts of Jesus that teach of his second coming.
For anyone interested in someone taking such drugs and parsing the experience without the After Life nonsense the user below is pedalling - here is an interesting link here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Not true, we do not know for a fact that the consciousness is confined solely to the brain.
But that is not what I said now is it? Not sure what you hope to gain by disagreeing with a point entirely different than the one I actually made.
Read it again:
So while we do not "know" what happens after death is pedantically a true statement - a more accurate and less misleading statement is to say "Everything we currently do know suggests nothing happens after death and consciousness puts the lights out when the brain stops. Nothing we currently know at this time suggests otherwise. Even a little bit".
I can re-write this easily to address what you just said:
So while we do not "know" that consciousness is confined solely to the brain is pedantically a true statement - a more accurate and less misleading statement is to say "Everything we currently do know suggests consciousness is linked solely to the brain Nothing we currently know at this time suggests otherwise. Even a little bit".
The problem here therefore seems to be that rather than discuss the evidence we have - you are more interested in a meta conversation about words like "know" and "believe". You are using a pedantic discussion about individual words to dodge the simple fact we have no evidence at this time for an after life, no evidence for consciousness working without a brain, and no evidence at all for consciousness separating itself from a living or dying or dead brain and going on without it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Sorry, but to be frank what you experienced is not even remotely close to a breakthrough on DMT or ayahuasca.
Sorry, but to be frank what you have described so far (which is little to nothing) does not differ from any experience I have had. And as I said I have used those drugs myself. You are not actually describing any experience to us here - just merely asserting with no substance that my experiences differ. Which is not helpful.
It is like my telling you over and over that despite you claiming to have the same car as me - that my car is massively different - but I am not actually going to show you my car or tell you a single thing about it in order to evidence that difference.
So basically you are not engaging in this conversation in good faith or honestly. You are hiding your cards to your chest - quite wilfully - and merely demanding that we trust the card hand is of the value you tell us because you refuse to actually show us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
The experience is not MADE UP. Everyone has the same or very similar experiences. There is no making up the experience because there are other people that can describe similar experiences.
It is not clear any more who or what you are replying to. Certainly not me or anything I wrote for sure. As I simply have not suggested or even implied that the experience is made up. Perhaps you can read what I wrote again and work out what it is you think you are responding to - and then inform the rest of us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
There is absolutely no evidence that shows the DMT/Ayahuasca experience only occurs "inside" the brain. If you have this evidence I'd like to see it.
What are you talking about now? You have a physical brain - you put a physical drug into yourself - and your moment to moment experience changes as a result. Where else but the brain do you think the evidence is therefore suggesting the experience originates or is founded?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
There is no proof that the NDE experience is similar to a DMT/Ayahuasca experience. Many individuals with no belief of the afterlife came out of the experience with their lives completely changed.
Your second sentence here is a complete non-sequitur to the first. The difference and similarities between the two experiences is entirely a different topic to whether people have a belief in the after life - or whether the experiences are transformative or not.
NDE and also drug related experiences can be transformative regardless of the religious or non-religious outlook of the person having them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Scientists still don't know where consciousness comes from and how it arises. There is no evidence that consciousness is confined to the brain.
You are repeating the same assertions that have already been replied to as if the replies to it have never existed. Which as I said is just evidence again you are not engaging with this thread and this conversation in good faith or honestly.
_Again_ the word "know" is getting in the way and sourcing most of your confusion and error. We have no reason to talk in these absolutes. We know a lot. Just not everything. And the _totality_ of what we currently know - even though it is incomplete - links consciousness to the brain. Nothing we know shows a separation of the two.
Now as I keep telling you - we do not know everything. Perhaps new data and evidence will come tomorrow showing the opposite. And it will be great and interesting if this happens. But the evidence we have _now_ - and only the evidence we have _now_ - supports nothing you want it to support. Sorry for ya - but thems the breaks of reality at this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
I'm not religious and there are many people who have had these experiences. How do you explain that? There is no evidence at all that says my beliefs are wrong.
Yes many people have those experiences! No one here appears to be denying that or disagreeing with you. So you are talking past people and at them - rather than with them. Yet again.
The problem is not the experiences or people having them. It is the nonsense that people such as yourself or our resident self proclaimed mystic jump to when they parse those experiences that is the issue.
The experiences themselves - how powerful and transformative they are - and how interesting they are - we fully and wholly accept that stuff!
There is no proof that the NDE experience is similar to a DMT/Ayahuasca experience. Many individuals with no belief of the afterlife came out of the experience with their lives completely changed.
Irrelevant to the point I actually made. But the data on NDEs is EVIDENCE your DMT/Ayahuasca experience is also a product of the brain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Scientists still don't know where consciousness comes from and how it arises. There is no evidence that consciousness is confined to the brain.
The latest evidence is that it is a product of the whole brain. The fact that we can link consciousness to the brain is evidence we have. You have no evidence that consciousness can exist outside the brain. All you have is a god of the gaps type argument. Which logically means you are probably wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
I'm not religious and there are many people who have had these experiences. How do you explain that?
A product of the brain based on your cultural beliefs and wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
There is no evidence at all that says my beliefs are wrong.
Apart from the evidence I posted. Contradictory experiences, cognitive bias.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
