Is there a GOD? Or a continuous recycle process of life? Or does everything cease to exist in death? (Christ, religion)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Nowhere have I mentioned NDEs in relation to DMT/Ayahuasca experience.
I DID mention NDEs to your comment "That something that happens after death could be nothing. Either something happens or doesn't. We don't know if something happens or does not happen. Nobody knows."
To which I responded "Work done on NDEs tells us that they are products of the cultural beliefs of the person having them. This is evidence that they are a product of the human mind trying to understand a situation that is not normal. This is not belief, this is actual scientific evidence.".
Maybe you should stop building straw people.
Maybe I misunderstood your comment : NDEs is EVIDENCE your DMT/Ayahuasca experience. If they are a product of the human mind how do you explain people who are congenitally blind for organic reasons and have never been able to see anything in their entire lives are able to perceive the environment when their non-local consciousness detaches from their bodies during various life-threatening situations?
Quote:
This is more than JUST A THEORY. It is the evidence you claim we do not have.
Irrelevant to the point that I gave you evidence.
If you want to play, try responding to what people are actually saying.
What you posted is absolutely no proof that consciousness is actually produced in the brain and by the brain. There is no doubt that what you posted showed that there exists vast clinical and experimental evidence showing significant interconnections and correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain. That is all.
There are literally thousands of well-conducted studies demonstrating the effects, both temporary and permanent, of mind altering substances on the structure and function of the brain. Enough that there are entire medical textbooks devoted to the topic (i.e., the evidence goes far beyond one person writing about their ideas in the pop-psychology laypress). Since I can't hand you copies from my library, try entering these in Google (without the quote marks):
"Studies showing effects of drugs on brain"
"PET scans effects of drugs on brain"
"Functional MRI effects of drugs on brain"
"How do drugs affect the brain?"
... and since this seems to be an area of personal interest, also see....
"Brain scans ayahuasca"
"Ayahuasca brain damage"
As I posted just now all these studies show is evidence of significant interconnections and correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain. These studies do not show that consciousness is actually produced in the brain and by the brain.
As I posted just now all these studies show is evidence of significant interconnections and correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain. These studies do not show that consciousness is actually produced in the brain and by the brain.
take apart a computer. show me the image you are looking at on the screen in that computer?
Maybe I misunderstood your comment : NDEs is EVIDENCE your DMT/Ayahuasca experience.
You misunderstood a claim I did not make?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
If they are a product of the human mind how do you explain people who are congenitally blind for organic reasons and have never been able to see anything in their entire lives are able to perceive the environment when their non-local consciousness detaches from their bodies during various life-threatening situations?
Perhaps you should provide some evidence that what you are talking about actually happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
What you posted is absolutely no proof that consciousness is actually produced in the brain and by the brain.
True. As I said, it is evidence. Not proof, evidence. Overwhelming evidence that began to accumulate many decades ago. If you want to see this evidence, you can always ask in the science section. I check almost every day, just in case the unusual should happen and a religious person asks in the correct section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
There is no doubt that what you posted showed that there exists vast clinical and experimental evidence showing significant interconnections and correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain. That is all.
Not once you read the actual science papers you appear to be oblivious about.
As I posted just now all these studies show is evidence of significant interconnections and correlations between the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry of the brain. These studies do not show that consciousness is actually produced in the brain and by the brain.
They are evidence for consciousness being produced in the brain and by the brain. You could argue the brain is a filter for some external consciousness, but then that raises the problems that 1) you have no evidence for that, and 2) you then need to explain, sans evidence, where that consciousness came from.
Perhaps you should provide some evidence that what you are talking about actually happens.
These were studies done by doctors on these types of individuals through observations. If you would like I can see if I can find the study but I doubt you would say it's evidence because the study is based on the personal experiences.
Quote:
True. As I said, it is evidence. Not proof, evidence. Overwhelming evidence that began to accumulate many decades ago. If you want to see this evidence, you can always ask in the science section. I check almost every day, just in case the unusual should happen and a religious person asks in the correct section.
Not once you read the actual science papers you appear to be oblivious about.
LOL I think it's you that needs to read and understand the study. What they discovered was global changes in how brain areas communicate with one another during awareness. Here is the abstract for you from the link you posted:
Neurobiological theories of awareness propose divergent accounts of the spatial extent of brain changes that support conscious perception. Whereas focal theories posit mostly local regional changes, global theories propose that awareness emerges from the propagation of neural signals across a broad extent of sensory and association cortex. Here we tested the scalar extent of brain changes associated with awareness using graph theoretical analysis applied to functional connectivity data acquired at ultra-high field while subjects performed a simple masked target detection task. We found that awareness of a visual target is associated with a degradation of the modularity of the brain’s functional networks brought about by an increase in intermodular functional connectivity. These results provide compelling evidence that awareness is associated with truly global changes in the brain’s functional connectivity.
Now where exactly in this study does it show proof that consciousness is actually produced in the brain?
Again, absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsover in the claim by you that consciousness is produced in the brain. Stop moving the goal posts.
These were studies done by doctors on these types of individuals through observations. If you would like I can see if I can find the study but I doubt you would say it's evidence because the study is based on the personal experiences.
Experiences alone are not good evidence. Experiences of actual, observable events (if you really have them) would be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
LOL I think it's you that needs to read and understand the study.
Wait while I get the pop corn before you shoot yourself in the foot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
What they discovered was global changes in how brain areas communicate with one another during awareness. Here is the abstract for you from the link you posted:
Neurobiological theories of awareness propose divergent accounts of the spatial extent of brain changes that support conscious perception. Whereas focal theories posit mostly local regional changes, global theories propose that awareness emerges from the propagation of neural signals across a broad extent of sensory and association cortex. Here we tested the scalar extent of brain changes associated with awareness using graph theoretical analysis applied to functional connectivity data acquired at ultra-high field while subjects performed a simple masked target detection task. We found that awareness of a visual target is associated with a degradation of the modularity of the brain’s functional networks brought about by an increase in intermodular functional connectivity. These results provide compelling evidence that awareness is associated with truly global changes in the brain’s functional connectivity.
Now where exactly in this study does it show proof that consciousness is actually produced in the brain?
Nowhere does it show proof. And I have pointed this out to you several times. What is does is show the EVIDENCE. Not PROOF, EVIDENCE. There, in the abstract you posted. You really should stop moving the goal posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Again, absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsover in the claim by you that consciousness is produced in the brain.
Of course it does. Hint, when you design a fighter plane, point the cannons outwards. Here, let me post the abstract for YOU.
Neurobiological theories of awareness propose divergent accounts of the spatial extent of brain changes that support conscious perception. Whereas focal theories posit mostly local regional changes, global theories propose that awareness emerges from the propagation of neural signals across a broad extent of sensory and association cortex. Here we tested the scalar extent of brain changes associated with awareness using graph theoretical analysis applied to functional connectivity data acquired at ultra-high field while subjects performed a simple masked target detection task. We found that awareness of a visual target is associated with a degradation of the modularity of the brain’s functional networks brought about by an increase in intermodular functional connectivity. These results provide compelling evidence that awareness is associated with truly global changes in the brain’s functional connectivity.
THIS is the evidence consciousness is a product of the whole brain. Not proof, evidence. Compelling evidence according to the abstract. Now if you have any evidence for another theory (such as the brain as a filter), please bring it to the table.
But beware. Part of my work is to model aspects of consciousness using simplified models of the brain. So you need to provide credible evidence that shows possible alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Stop moving the goal posts.
One, learn your fallacies.
Two, practice what you preach.
Experiences alone are not good evidence. Experiences of actual, observable events (if you really have them) would be good.
Wait while I get the pop corn before you shoot yourself in the foot.
Nowhere does it show proof. And I have pointed this out to you several times. What is does is show the EVIDENCE. Not PROOF, EVIDENCE. There, in the abstract you posted. You really should stop moving the goal posts.
Of course it does. Hint, when you design a fighter plane, point the cannons outwards. Here, let me post the abstract for YOU.
Neurobiological theories of awareness propose divergent accounts of the spatial extent of brain changes that support conscious perception. Whereas focal theories posit mostly local regional changes, global theories propose that awareness emerges from the propagation of neural signals across a broad extent of sensory and association cortex. Here we tested the scalar extent of brain changes associated with awareness using graph theoretical analysis applied to functional connectivity data acquired at ultra-high field while subjects performed a simple masked target detection task. We found that awareness of a visual target is associated with a degradation of the modularity of the brain’s functional networks brought about by an increase in intermodular functional connectivity. These results provide compelling evidence that awareness is associated with truly global changes in the brain’s functional connectivity.
THIS is the evidence consciousness is a product of the whole brain. Not proof, evidence. Compelling evidence according to the abstract. Now if you have any evidence for another theory (such as the brain as a filter), please bring it to the table.
But beware. Part of my work is to model aspects of consciousness using simplified models of the brain. So you need to provide credible evidence that shows possible alternatives.
One, learn your fallacies.
Two, practice what you preach.
Ugh, I give up. You simply do not understand what you are reading and posting. This study is simply evidence that the brain INFLUENCES consciousness. This study does not show that the brain CREATES consciousness. What you are looking at are the neural correlates of certain measurable behaviors that we think are closely related with consciousness, such as attention, self-awareness, access to information, and the ability to comprehend and communicate. This is the standard materialist position that consciousness is tied up with the brain.
Ugh, I give up. You simply do not understand what you are reading and posting. This study is simply evidence that the brain INFLUENCES consciousness. This study does not show that the brain CREATES consciousness. What you are looking at are the neural correlates of certain measurable behaviors that we think are closely related with consciousness, such as attention, self-awareness, access to information, and the ability to comprehend and communicate. This is the standard materialist position that consciousness is tied up with the brain.
what they are doing now is akin to taking a computer a part without knowing that plus 5 volts if a 1 and no volts is a zero. Let alone the program.
Take apart a computer and you don't see the "images" or the program. that doesn't mean they where beamed in.
Ugh, I give up. You simply do not understand what you are reading and posting. ....
To paraphrase Bluto Blutarsky, who wasted 7 years of college... "40 years of neuroscience research, down the drain!"
Ugh, is right. So let's come at this from the other direction:
Where does consciousness come from, if not from the brain?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
