Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Once again with the 'proof'. I KNOW I have evidence that consciousness is created in the brain, the neural correlates is that evidence. That is why it is the consensus opinion. Not your contrived 'evidence for proof', just evidence. Why do you insist on misrepresenting this?
No, you do not. You think you do, but sadly you do not.
Quote:
You are still dodging. I have backed up my claims, including a few papers (that you insist on misrepresenting them). You want me to do this again?
I asked you for specific evidence. Where does Christoph von der Malsburg say that consciousness is created in the brain? You have yet to show me a link or quote where he says this. You sir have failed to show anything of substance.
Quote:
No, I was pointing out we were talking about the human brain.
I’m talking about consciousness in general. If starfish are not conscious then they are not aware. If they are not aware then how do they operate? Mechanically?
Quote:
If the evidence (neural correlates) supports that theory, it is a good theory. If it does not support the theory, it is a bad theory. So once again, if the brain is the cause of consciousness, then we should see the neural correlates. And we do. That is why the neural correlates is the evidence you claim I have not presented. It could also be evidence for some other theory.
There is nothing out there that says specifically where consciousness is generated, still lots of disputes. Many different theories out there. No scientific theory explains everything. There is still a lot of work being done between neurophysiological processes and subjective experiences. FACT: Experts do not know how human consciousness arises.
Quote:
Irrelevant to the points I was making. And you know I was not talking about Hoffman's theory.
I was pointing out where Hoffman quotes McGinn saying “WE (so that is more than one) know that brains are the de facto causal basis of consciousness,", so that is more than one person who says consciousness is caused by the brain. He literally says that. Yet you repeatedly claimed no one but me is making that claim.
Hoffman also points out Pinker agrees, so 1) that is at least three experts saying this, and 2) that Pinker does not agree with you.
And Hoffman shows this by quoting the passage you took out of context, that Pinker agrees the brain causes consciousness, but he does not know how. Yet you claimed it "seems to me that Pinker agrees with my view point that no one knows exactly where consciousness comes from".
You can keep moving the goal posts if you want, but I am just going to come back to this point. In fact from now on, I am just going to post a version of the above. Because it demonstrates how when your ignorant assertions are shown to be wrong, you then just misrepresent.
I have not misrepresented anything. McGinn is saying we do not know how brains generate consciousness. He agrees with me. Nobody knows how the brain GENERATES/CREATES consciousness. This is what I have been saying the whole time. Where does consciousness come from? Apparently you are the only one in this universe that KNOWS this answer.
Quote:
No, because he says in the book that the fundamental neural units of the cerebral cortex are linked to conscious experience. It is an inference, not an implication.
Your conclusion’s are incorrect and based on his quotes Richard Feynman agrees with my view point.
Quote:
I have not claimed I understand it all. So once again you misrepresent.
You claim to understand EXACTLY how the brain generates consciousness. Something no one else knows. You sir, are the one misrepresenting here.
Just because energy is constantly recycled does not prove that there is a God. All energy evolves. If it did not then the universe would have collapsed in on its self billions of years ago. You only have to look at light to see this. Sunlight hits the earth and does multiple functions. It provided energy for the zooplankton millions of years ago and now have oil, gas and coal. We use this energy and it by-product heats up the earth. Were it goes from there who knows. Light refracts and form different functions. It used by plants to make sugars so it can grow then we harvest certain plants we and other animals use for fuel. Always in a potential/ kinetic energy cycle. When we die our energy will recycle into something else. On the most base level we fertilize the ground. A decaying body heats up and provides food for micro organisms etc. But we have different form of energy in us, such as emotional energy and more. If you have ever noticed the emotions in a room you have walked into. There may be two people in the room and they are not talking or sitting close to each other but whether it anger or sexual tension a perceptive person will feel it. Hence the term,"the tension in the room is so thick you can cut it with a knife". An angry mob, a football match are just some further examples of effects of energy emitted from us.
In understanding that we all have energy that is emitted from us while we are alive and is continued to be emitted from us when we are dead, you come to a philosophical issue about whether we have a soul and whether that continues on after we die. There are different schools of thought on this but I am in favour of the Pythagorean school of thought which can be seen down through Socrates and Plato schools of thought, which was a big influence on the rise of spiritual belief 2000 years ago. This should not be confused with the teachings of Christianity today.
It can be also be seen in other teachings. Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaic Kabbalah are some of the more well known.
It is thought by some that Yeshua/Jesus stole this knowledge from Yohanan the banus aka John the baptizer. Then when the Romans got involved they did not understand or were not told and created a form of religion that was about control not enlightenment. Yohanan/John's group still exist today. They are a Gnostic religion. But not even the real Jesus, who did not die by crucifixion, believed that you all went to heaven and lived with God. For this people should read the Nag Hammadi texts.
The Pythagorean teaching believed that the soul existed as part of your limbic system. This is part of your brain that cannot lie. It is learned behaviour that learns to lie. If you have heard of the term of "being born again" then this was the real concept behind this school of thought. It still exists today in different lines of teaching but it is not mainstream.
This teaching cannot be confused with the thought of flying up to a mystical place called heaven or paradise it teaches you that if you put your self into this energy then when your body dies this will continue on. Where to, there is only speculation. The meditation/exercise system is interesting. But it does not prove that there is a God.
I come to the next part of my response and that is God. There are a few things that must be taken into consideration when speculating on this. I must stress speculating, for reality is a sense of one's own perception. What is God? Even if there was one how could we ever begin to comprehend what it was. We do not even see colours the same as the next person let alone fully understand their thinking or emotions. We may have similar but never the same.
Then there are the questions that must be asked. Does God have a God? Does God's God have a God, ad infinitum.
If there is a creature that controls this universe, is it something that devours all the souls/energy and we are just a food source.
This maybe a scary one for some. Do we or have we created a God. If so then the Christians have a lot to worry about. If the mass belief in this Christian God/devil, heaven/hell has made it a reality then I think that Christians should be like the Egyptians. They should take things with them when they die. But not servants and weapons. They should take Xanax, Zoloft and any other anti-psychotic medication they can get. Because your God is bat **** crazy and your heaven is not going to be a nice place. It will be full of any sick twisted person that makes an appeal to your "Jesus" before they die. Murderers, rapist, pedophiles and thieves.
So the concept of God is a complex one that can only be answered by accepting every one's right to there belief or perception of it. There are many gods. Some as simple as money or drugs. Some more complex.
Sorry my response is so long for some. It is a complex subject and I would have to write so much more to give a better response. Just remember all energy evolves. You make good energy then good energy evolves and same with bad. You cannot change it. Shout something out, then try to catch the sound waves. Make people unhear it. What you teach the children today is the world you create tomorrow.
I wish to leave you with a little of my spiritual understanding from the reading I have done on the subject.
Your word is all you can truly own. Everything can and will be taken from you. But if you own your word you will own your soul. People that have just an
ego will lie, cheat and even kill to protect it. People who own their word will die to uphold it.
A pure heart knows no lie.
A pure thought knows no indoctrination.
A pure spirit know no association.
I'm not unclear. You are just not understanding what I'm saying or you have a different definition for consciousness.
Except it is unclear - which is why I am seeking clarity. That you believe _your_ position is clear to _you_ is kinda stating the blatantly obvious. As for definitions of consciousness I have not offered you one - and I do not recall you offering me one. So how you come to the conclusions about the differences I am also not clear on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
No human has ever seen a brain or anything else produce consciousness. All you are describing is the relationship between the conscious mind and the electro-chemical interactions in the body and the possible different levels of the conscious state.
Exactly. Now you are starting to get it. And this is _evidence_ for a link between the two. And as I keep telling you again and again - we have a lot of _evidence_ even if we do not have 100% conclusive proof. You appear to be treating the two as if they are the same thing.
And all I have been saying to you - over and over in fact - is that while that evidence is not complete or 100% conclusive - 100% of the evidences we do have point in only one direction.
More (or less) I have not actually said. Yet you keep responding in every post as if you think I have, which is at best rather odd.
eading comprehension fails you once again. Learn to read and comprehend please. Again - 100% of the evidence we have at this time links consciousness and the brain. 0% of the evidence we have at this time shows any disconnect between the two. That is all I have been saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Ok you said you had "Similiar experiences" How could you know you had similar experiences to DMT if you never took DMT?
Who said I never took it? I certainly did not. You appear to be piling quite a lot of your own assumptions into this conversation. You said you had a DMT experience - I said I had a similar experience - which to anyone who understands basic English would suggest I also have DMT experience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
This is where you are mistaken because I never claimed I had any scientific evidence. Only subjective experiences of myself and thousands of others.
You appear not to have _any_ evidence for anything at all really - so why limit our conversation to just "scientific evidence"? What you have is some experiences you have vaguely described. And all I have said to you is that there is no reason at this time for anyone to thing that what those experiences "felt like" - map onto what those experiences actually were.
I am sure your experiences were real and they "felt like" your consciousness lefts your brain and your body. I have had those experiences myself. I am sure your experiences "felt like" you entered some other kind of dimension(s). I have also had those experiences myself.
But given the context and topic of this thread specifically - I feel it useful to point out that while it "felt like" those things happened we have _zero_ reason to think they actually did.
So you can shout "wrong" at me all you like without actually showing me I was - but you have not yet rebutted a single thing I have actually said rather than what you want to pretend I have been saying.
No, you do not. You think you do, but sadly you do not.
Once again, the neural correlates are the evidence consciousness is a product of the brain. You seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp this concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
I asked you for specific evidence. Where does Christoph von der Malsburg say that consciousness is created in the brain? You have yet to show me a link or quote where he says this. You sir have failed to show anything of substance.
His work on facial recognition is based on modelling how the brain does this. This should be a BIG clue. A large part of the AI industry is based on modelling aspects of consciousness based on the structure of the brain. My work in the retail sector is based on neural networks, for example. But my work in the education sector is based on the process rather than the cause of that process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
There is nothing out there that says specifically where consciousness is generated, still lots of disputes.
Yet I quoted someone pointing out at least 3 people say where consciousness originates. I even pointed to a paper that claims it is the whole brain that is responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Many different theories out there. No scientific theory explains everything. There is still a lot of work being done between neurophysiological processes and subjective experiences. FACT: Experts do not know how human consciousness arises.
FACT, I know. It is not the how that is being discussed. Also, the word neurophysiologist is still a big clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
I have not misrepresented anything. McGinn is saying we do not know how brains generate consciousness.
Exactly. WE know the where, but not the how. Quoting Hoffman 'As McGinn (1989) puts it, “WE know that brains are the de facto causal basis of consciousness, but we have, it seems, no understanding whatever of how this can be so.”
Reading comprehension fails you. I never claimed there was any scientific evidence. Only subjective experiences. Where is the evidence that the brain creates consciousness? Oh yea that's right, there is none.
What does McGinn say?
Quoting Hoffman 'As McGinn (1989) puts it, “WE know that brains are the de facto causal basis of consciousness, but we have, it seems, no understanding whatever of how this can be so.”
Nobody knows how the brain GENERATES/CREATES consciousness. This is what I have been saying the whole time.
NO, you have claimed the brain is a filter, that the brain is not the source, and that there 'are thousands of studies and research that has been done on subjective experiences that consciousness is "Non-Local" to the brain'.
Why can you not keep your stories straight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Where does consciousness come from?
The evidence says the brain. As McGinn says. How it does this, we do not know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Apparently you are the only one in this universe that KNOWS this answer.
And Mcginn. And Pinker. And Dennet. And Minsky. usw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
Your conclusion’s are incorrect and based on his quotes Richard Feynman agrees with my view point.
Mmmh, do I trust you, or what an actual expert actually said?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel350z
You claim to understand EXACTLY how the brain generates consciousness. Something no one else knows. You sir, are the one misrepresenting here.
I have never claimed I know HOW, only the WHERE. My claim is that the evidence shows consciousness is a product of the brain. And my work based on the findings of others (for which I get paid good money) is supporting evidence.
Once again, the neural correlates are the evidence consciousness is a product of the brain.
xxxx
I have never claimed I know HOW, only the WHERE. My claim is that the evidence shows consciousness is a product of the brain. And my work based on the findings of others (for which I get paid good money) is supporting evidence.
I tend to think consciousness exists in variable, lesser or greater, degrees in life. And I think that neural correlates proving that consciousness is a product of the brain is evidence supporting a theory, which may or may not be true.
It could just as easily be that consciousness exists which our mind can comprehend because of the neural correlates sparking. And if you want to claim that consciousness is a product of the mind then that must be all that we really are, a product of our own mind? Not so, or is it? As a man thinks, so he is.
Consciousness could exist in a mind without being the product of a mind. A realization of what is. A comprehension of the mind instead of a product of the mind. Is understanding a product of the brain or was it a product of you working and spinning your brain? You had to work for it?
So consciousness is only a product of the brain? Well, product of one half of the brain maybe.
Your conscious half of the brain is dead and that is all there is? What about the other part of the brain that exists and operates beneath and beyond consciousness: that subconscious self which contains the totality of mental processes of which we are unaware of [except for a word in a dictionary-Subconscious]and does not report to you necessarily?
So consciousness is a product of a brain and nothing more?
And the subconscious that exists and operates beneath and beyond consciousness, what is that a product of?
All my definitions of subconscious came from my dictionary - you don't believe it exists?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I even pointed to a paper that claims it is the whole brain that is responsible. 