GOP Lawmaker: Execute those not following Biblical Law (atheism, believers, Christ)
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But the Title acts as a Headline and biases those who don't even read the article or post. It is why the race of criminal suspects are withheld from headlines.
Here is the original headline from the article:
GOP Lawmaker Matt Shea Releases Christian Manifesto Calling For Biblical Law
I reduced the number of characters in the title of the thread so that it would fit C-D's format. The fact that the manifesto was written by a duly elected member of the Washington state legislature was an important part of the story. You may feel that I had an obligation to suppress, or downplay, the fact that the guy is a Republican. But I don't.
As an example, David Duke is a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. He ran for president as a Republican. You may consider the fact that David Duke and Matt Shea both happen to be Republicans inflammatory. But I consider it an important fact.
Like it or not Matt Shea's is a Republican, and his Christian manifesto calling for biblical law is a natural topic for discussion on a religious forum.
What happened that day was not about "religion" but about human beings using religion to create an Us v Them, We Are Right/They Are Wrong And Therefore Must Be Punished dynamic using the mask of religion to gain followers and minions to carry out attacks against other parts of humanity.
I have to disagree. Sorry, MQ.
One of the things that got America into this mess with Islam is approaching Islam, especially radical Islam, from a Western perspective. Their religion is the only thing that matters to them. Even their own children are sacrificial fodder should they date the wrong man.
Forget 9/11, look how they treat EACH OTHER.
Remember the ISIS manifesto which listed the top 10 reasons why they were attacking the West, and aside from a handful of the standard political clap trap - supporting Israel or the presence of Western troops in Saudi Arabia - THE A#1 reason why ISIS was attacking the West is because we're not Muslims.
I know a lot of people, entrenched in their Western-centric way of looking at things believe that all we have to do is sit down at a negotiating table and start wheeling and dealing -- and radical Islam can be pacified.
It can't.
Trust me. I lived in a Muslim nation for long enough to know that. I lost a childhood friend to Jihadist terrorism when we were both 7 years old.
This IS very much about religion. And it IS very much an Us vs. Them prospect.
What we have to understand is that not all Muslims are radicals. Most of them are not. The vast majority, in fact. But that is ALL we can do -- separate the moderate and liberal Muslims from the fundamentalist conservatives.
Because it's the fundamentalist conservatives like Matt Shea who is making Christianity sound indistinguishable from ISIS.
I've been saying this for ... how long now, folks? Have I not been screaming my damn fingers off warning people that this kind of fascistic theocracy was stalking our freedoms here in America?
Those who are liberal and quasi-moderate Christians never want to think that these wars and fights are about religion - because if they admitted reality and realized that it IS, in fact, all about religion, they may have to begrudgingly come to the dawning understanding that posters like "Tired of the Nonsense" have the right of things. In other words, it is a form of denial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
In this case, it was not Religion vs. Religion, because Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, atheists, and everyone else were the victims. It was a mindset against a culture they perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have made grievous acts against them, and they used the veneer of religious righteousness to gain support for their cause.
Radical Muslims don't care if they kill other Muslims, much less Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists, atheists, or anyone else who isn't a radical Muslim - and even radical Muslims are sacrificed on a daily basis.
Radical Islam can be best summed up by the rationalizations made by Ayatollah Khomeini back in the 80's when he was asked by his staff about his policies on execution (which were brutal) and accidentally killing innocent and devout Muslims. And Khomeini essentially said that if they were devout and good Muslims, they will go to paradise as martyrs and if not, they will burn in hell. Either way, they're covered.
People think that radical Islam only attack Christians -- which is a load of bullshyte. The friend I lost was Hindu. So was her family. And every other person who lost their lives when the bomb went off. And this was in India.
The radical Jihadists have planted bombs in Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation to go after the "godless communists." They've planted bombs in India to go after the Hindus. They've planted bombs in China to hit the Buddhists, Confuscionists, and Taosists as well as the atheists. They joined the Nazi Waffen SS as far back as 1944 for the opportunity to kill Jews. If there was a Pagan nation, you can bet your bottom dollar they'd go after them, too.
The fact that there were people of all religions inside the WTC that day only made those buildings an all the more delicious target. Because radical Jihadists have one goal - make the entire world bow to the Star and Crescent and turn every man, woman, and child into a fundamentalist Muslim.
And if a few innocent Muslims get in the way because they happened to be in the building that day, oh well. They'll be in paradise as martyrs right alongside the terrorists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
In case you missed it, I've mentioned about fifty times on this forum that since That Day I have written and spoken out against the Us v Them mentality and the damage it can do.
I agree, it can be dangerous.
Be that as it may, sometimes it really IS an Us vs. Them scenario, and this is one of those times. What makes it dangerous is when we have a growing fundamentalist Christian sect who believes the only counter to fundamentalist Islam is fundamentalist Christianity. If that ever happens, well, what Matt Shea wants will become reality.
Because there are billions of moderate and liberal Muslims, and while a small few of them do protest and make pretty speeches condemning it. They DO nothing to stop it.
And I'm here to tell you that if people like Matt Shea have their way -- and let's face it, the guy is already an elected state rep., not some fringy guy in his mom's basement -- the only thing moderate and liberal Christians will do is protest and make pretty speeches condemning radical Christianity.
But like the Muslims, they will DO nothing.
And the terror will go on and on and on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I urge all people to seek commonalities rather than focus on differences and to learn to see people as individuals instead of as members of groups to which false assumptions about them can then be assigned.
You can't seek commonalities with these people -- unless you yourself are willing to throw on a Burqa an get on your knees five times a day. Because that's what it'll take.
Again, this is that Western-centric viewpoint where we use diplomacy, we make deals, we concede one some issues to win on others. We make compromises that both sides can tolerate.
No!
The Jihadist brain cares not a whit for the Western way of doing things. If you even managed to get one of them to sit down at a negotiating table to search out commonalities, the Muslim will slam his fist on the table and say, "You will convert to Islam. That is the only demand I make. And I will NEVER budge on it"
How do you compromise on that? Where is the commonality you're looking for? Because there isn't one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
What this Congressman is doing is shameful and very much in line with that Us v Them mentality, but by broadly sweeping all religious people under the same umbrella, so are you! Part of my song-and-dance is that the answer to such actions is NOT to become just like they are.
I'll bet you a million dollars that moron gets re-elected tonight. No, I'll bet you anything you're willing to bet. I'd even post a naked picture of myself if I lost the bet that's how confident I am of winning it. Okay, maybe half naked since the mods would never allow it.
THIS is the reason why we atheists find it so easy to "broadly sweep all religious people under the same umbrella." How many of those voters were Christian? How many of them will give lip service to how awful Matt Shea is for writing this manifesto while still voting for him and secretly hoping he succeeds?
How many will put a militant Christian radical right back into a position of power where he can plot and connive to make his vision of America a reality -- together with people like Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum and a host of others who are known Dominionists?
When Christians blather about the evils of the Matt Sheas of this world while continuing to vote for the little shyte, how in hell do you expect atheists to react? Think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
You have been on this forum long enough that you are aware that Matt Shea's way of thinking is not applicable to all Christians, or even most.
I agree that Shea's thinking doesn't apply to ALL Christians, but these days? Nah, I'm not willing to say that they don't apply to most. Because I think it does.
All one has to do is look at the election results tonight -- NOTHING CHANGED! In fact, the GOP even picked up a few more seats in the House! This despite the fact that the GOP doesn't even bother to try and hide the fact that they are racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes and xenophobes anymore, and hate anyone who aren't carbon-copied clones of themselves.
Where, might I ask, is all that good Christian outrage? It certainly wasn't expressed at the voting booth. So where, then? Explain to me please why the Bible Belt keeps voting GOP in every election? Who came a hairs' width away in Alabama from electing a pedophile to represent them in Washington? And who confirmed another womanizing misogynist to sit on the Supreme Court?
Where is this vaunted Christian morality, MQ?
I'm sorry, but if you expect me to believe that most Christians are good people? You'll have to do better than say so on a forum. Because what I'm seeing Out There in the real world seems to suggest just the opposite.
Now ... having said all of that. Yes, I know that not every last single Christian represents the values of Matt Shea. The problem, however, is that either all the good ones are sitting home today and not voting OR there just aren't enough of them left to make a damn bit of difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I doubt very much that even the Christians on this forum who identify as "fundamentalist" would go as far to call for the execution of people who don't follow biblical law (though I can think of two or three who likely would be OK with that).
Most of the Christians HERE are good people. That much is true. What's also true, though, is that even in a community as small as ours here on this forum, we still have about half a dozen Christians who, as you say, wouldn't mind. Three of them I can name straight away who would actively help Shea achieve his goals and three more who would delibately stand aside and allow it to happen just so they can have plausible deniability when atheists start the verbal smack-down.
The fact that we have even that many out of, pehaps, 30 or 40 regular posters, says a lot, really, regarding the general make-up of the US population. What's worse is that forum posters who post in topical categories like politics and religion on a modded forum, by and large, tend to be a bit more intellectual than the average person because they have a desire to debate the issues and have meaningful discussions about big issues without the flagrant name-calling and personal threats you see on un-modded forums. Having so many people on a forum like this who would openly or secretly cheer for Shae's vision is not a good sign at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
This is good exposure, though, and hopefully, people of all religions, or none, will see the danger in allowing people like this in leadership positions, speak out to squelch them, and most importantly, remove them from such positions.
And you know what? It won't matter. Even if this story were plastered all across every news media outlet from the New York Times to CNN to Fox News to the BBC -- even if every station, including cable, preempted the current show being aired to give a special report about his manifesto. Even if, upon starting every web browser in existence began with a webpage detailing how awful Matt Shea is, he would still get elected.
Stunning post as usual especially the Plain talk about Islam. There is no hope in talking to this people. You hit the nail on the head with the Islamic "God shall know his own" mentality. Life doesn't matter a damn to such people. All that matters is the religion.
The hope is that many muslims are sick of being hered about by religion and a good number of the younger ones simply do not believe it. Some speak out and we know what can happen. Jail, if you're lucky. Death is a more probable first option.
But to the US thing, (what's the result? - there is nothing on the 'net but trash, adverts and 'sign up if you want read any more') we got it here with Brexit. Which is not just about "wresting sovereignty from Brussels". It is about a right -wing Christian, anti -europe, pro dictatorship (they love Trump and Putin) anti anything liberal, tolerant and progressive (anti gay marriage, sex education, schools without religious instruction, etc), xenophobic bigotry party who'd build a wall between us and France if the Channel wasn't there. It is no coincidence that Gove is a creationist.
They should never have won, but they cleverly exploited fear of Muslim Immigration and frustration with criminals apparently being able to get away with anything by appealing to Brussels.
It is distressing that atheist video -presenter Pat Condell let his lack if enthusiasm for islam (which i share) drive him into the Brexit camp. So much that he spoke approvingly of Trump and Putin. I keep waiting for the rising tide of irreligion or people suddenly waking up and thinking 'what in the name of everything bloody have we been voting for?' tossing this crap in the bin and voting sensible (if you can find any party worth voting for), but it seems to get worse rather than better.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-07-2018 at 05:10 AM..
I am an atheist and I am also a Republican. I used to be a Democrat for most of my life but have turned my back on them when they turned their backs on the workers that built their Party and our Nation. Do I believe that we have kooks in every Party; of course just look at Maxime Waters, Nancy Pelosi, or Elizabeth Warren. Matt Shea is not the first nut case to ever walk this planet or will he be the last. I am sorry that people still vote for politicians with serious mental issues. Fortunately for us what Matt Shea believes is illegal.
I am an atheist and I am also a Republican. I used to be a Democrat for most of my life but have turned my back on them when they turned their backs on the workers that built their Party and our Nation. Do I believe that we have kooks in every Party; of course just look at Maxime Waters, Nancy Pelosi, or Elizabeth Warren. Matt Shea is not the first nut case to ever walk this planet or will he be the last. I am sorry that people still vote for politicians with serious mental issues. Fortunately for us what Matt Shea believes is illegal.
Matt Shea is not the only Republican proposing imposing "Biblical law" on the nation. He is just the first law maker (to my knowledge) that is openly stating that those who don't conform with his conservative views should be put to death.
Christians often accuse atheists of planning to abolish religion through the use of force. I certainly do not support any such action, and I am unaware of any other atheists supporting such an action. While it is true that the communists sought to abolish religion through force, the religious beliefs continued to survive, and communism itself is now largely dead.
Beliefs cannot be eradicated through force. If the beliefs are valid, they will never be eradicated. If the beliefs are not valid, they can only be eradicated by thoroughly examining them and exposing them as invalid on a point by point basis.
I might point out that Democratic "kooks" Maxine Waters, Nancy Pelosi, and Elizabeth Warren have never proposed executing those who disagree with them. You my friend have been listening to too much right wing talk radio.
I am an atheist and I am also a Republican. I used to be a Democrat for most of my life but have turned my back on them when they turned their backs on the workers that built their Party and our Nation. Do I believe that we have kooks in every Party; of course just look at Maxime Waters, Nancy Pelosi, or Elizabeth Warren. Matt Shea is not the first nut case to ever walk this planet or will he be the last. I am sorry that people still vote for politicians with serious mental issues. Fortunately for us what Matt Shea believes is illegal.
Elizabeth Warren is not a kook. She is a woman with principals, willing to call out corruption when she sees it. She was calling attention to the corruption in lending practices when she was still a professor at Harvard. (Have no opinion re: Waters or Pelosi. Don't know enough about them).
Matt Shea is not the only Republican proposing imposing "Biblical law" on the nation. He is just the first law maker (to my knowledge) that is openly stating that those who don't conform with his conservative views should be put to death.
Christians often accuse atheists of planning to abolish religion through the use of force. I certainly do not support any such action, and I am unaware of any other atheists supporting such an action. While it is true that the communists sought to abolish religion through force, the religious beliefs continued to survive, and communism itself is now largely dead.
Beliefs cannot be eradicated through force. If the beliefs are valid, they will never be eradicated. If the beliefs are not valid, they can only be eradicated by thoroughly examining them and exposing them as invalid on a point by point basis.
I might point out that Democratic "kooks" Maxine Waters, Nancy Pelosi, and Elizabeth Warren have never proposed executing those who disagree with them. You my friend have been listening to too much right wing talk radio.
Isn't it neat that there are still a few groups that can be pre-judged without one being labeled a bigot?! "If one of them likes pineapples they all do! Oh, well you know what I mean." And this actually passes for intelligence...it's amazing.
Can somebody please explain to me what characteristics a Christian might see in this person that would cause people to support his platform and vote for him? I'm quite confused, and this guy was re-elected yesterday, so he must have a substantial number of people who support what he has to say.
One of the things that got America into this mess with Islam is approaching Islam, especially radical Islam, from a Western perspective. Their religion is the only thing that matters to them. Even their own children are sacrificial fodder should they date the wrong man.
Forget 9/11, look how they treat EACH OTHER.
Remember the ISIS manifesto which listed the top 10 reasons why they were attacking the West, and aside from a handful of the standard political clap trap - supporting Israel or the presence of Western troops in Saudi Arabia - THE A#1 reason why ISIS was attacking the West is because we're not Muslims.
I know a lot of people, entrenched in their Western-centric way of looking at things believe that all we have to do is sit down at a negotiating table and start wheeling and dealing -- and radical Islam can be pacified.
It can't.
Trust me. I lived in a Muslim nation for long enough to know that. I lost a childhood friend to Jihadist terrorism when we were both 7 years old.
This IS very much about religion. And it IS very much an Us vs. Them prospect.
What we have to understand is that not all Muslims are radicals. Most of them are not. The vast majority, in fact. But that is ALL we can do -- separate the moderate and liberal Muslims from the fundamentalist conservatives.
Just to be clear, I don't believe that radical Islam can be appeased by sitting down and chatting, and I'm sorry if my post could be taken to imply that I meant THAT. The people who think like ISIS are beyond any reasonable conversation. I was talking about people here in the US, the average everyday people of different faiths/cultures/whatnot who live and work near one another and interact with one another. That's where it has to begin. I work for Muslims, as I've mentioned time and again. Pakis, non-radical people who just want to make their business a success. The company president is a woman, a transportation engineer with advanced degrees. I've been to primarily Muslim events where women wearing hijabs (which my boss doesn't wear) get up and speak passionately about encouraging young women to study physics and math and enter the engineering disciplines.
And I am truly sorry that you lost a childhood friend to terrorism. I lost one to leukemia, and that was frightening enough. Violence has to be a whole other level of horror for a child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Because it's the fundamentalist conservatives like Matt Shea who is making Christianity sound indistinguishable from ISIS.
I've been saying this for ... how long now, folks? Have I not been screaming my damn fingers off warning people that this kind of fascistic theocracy was stalking our freedoms here in America?
I'm puzzled as to why you hold onto the idea that there are no theists who fully agree with those statements above. We say it right here on these boards. Hell, I suspect they despise us more than they do atheists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Those who are liberal and quasi-moderate Christians never want to think that these wars and fights are about religion - because if they admitted reality and realized that it IS, in fact, all about religion, they may have to begrudgingly come to the dawning understanding that posters like "Tired of the Nonsense" have the right of things. In other words, it is a form of denial.
No, it is a form of disagreement. We know that making sweeping generalizations denigrating all religious people, regardless of what the faith may be, is wrong.
<snip>
There is no argument whatsoever that radical Islam is dangerous. Trust me, I know better than most on here. I've experienced it twice, and even though I have some ugly stuff in my memory, I got off pretty easy compared to some I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
I agree, it can be dangerous.
Be that as it may, sometimes it really IS an Us vs. Them scenario, and this is one of those times. What makes it dangerous is when we have a growing fundamentalist Christian sect who believes the only counter to fundamentalist Islam is fundamentalist Christianity. If that ever happens, well, what Matt Shea wants will become reality.
Because there are billions of moderate and liberal Muslims, and while a small few of them do protest and make pretty speeches condemning it. They DO nothing to stop it.
And I'm here to tell you that if people like Matt Shea have their way -- and let's face it, the guy is already an elected state rep., not some fringy guy in his mom's basement -- the only thing moderate and liberal Christians will do is protest and make pretty speeches condemning radical Christianity.
But like the Muslims, they will DO nothing.
And the terror will go on and on and on.
What would you have other Christians do? Shoot him? What can moderate and liberal Christians do over and above what anyone else can do besides speak out and work against that type of thinking as individuals or in groups? Serious question.
We can't change the hearts and minds of the Matt Sheas any more than you can. In some cases we CAN do stuff that you can't do. You can sing and dance and type about gay rights as an atheist, but that isn't going to help a gay person person of faith who feels rejected by his religion. By welcoming them as they are, by allowing them to freely celebrate their marriages in our houses of worship, we can restore a part of their lives that was important to them that they lost. It doesn't get rid of the oppressor, but it does help the oppressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
I'll bet you a million dollars that moron gets re-elected tonight. No, I'll bet you anything you're willing to bet. I'd even post a naked picture of myself if I lost the bet that's how confident I am of winning it. Okay, maybe half naked since the mods would never allow it.
THIS is the reason why we atheists find it so easy to "broadly sweep all religious people under the same umbrella." How many of those voters were Christian? How many of them will give lip service to how awful Matt Shea is for writing this manifesto while still voting for him and secretly hoping he succeeds?
I don't know. By the same token, how many will be so reviled and disgusted that they DON'T vote for him? (At this moment, I have no idea if he was re-elected, and I don't have time to look it up.))
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
How many will put a militant Christian radical right back into a position of power where he can plot and connive to make his vision of America a reality -- together with people like Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum and a host of others who are known Dominionists?
When Christians blather about the evils of the Matt Sheas of this world while continuing to vote for the little shyte, how in hell do you expect atheists to react? Think about it.
When atheists blather about how all the Christians (and people of other religions) are all one big problem, how in hell do you expect THEM to react? Think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
I agree that Shea's thinking doesn't apply to ALL Christians, but these days? Nah, I'm not willing to say that they don't apply to most. Because I think it does.
I think you are wrong, but I think you have reasons to believe what you do, and it may be that I am wrong. Just as I used to get rolly-eyes when people continually leapt and shrieked on the A&A forum about Bible-bangers knocking on their doors every week before I learned that there are some places where this DOES happen regularly, I know that many posters on here live in parts of the country where fundamentalist Christianity has a strong foothold. I am grateful not to live in such a place. They exist here, but they are far outnumbered. Unfortunately, as you say below, they do exist in numbers in large swaths of this country. The talking heads were saying last night that this election made it clearer than ever that there are sharp lines between the coasts and what's in between them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
All one has to do is look at the election results tonight -- NOTHING CHANGED! In fact, the GOP even picked up a few more seats in the House! This despite the fact that the GOP doesn't even bother to try and hide the fact that they are racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes and xenophobes anymore, and hate anyone who aren't carbon-copied clones of themselves.
Where, might I ask, is all that good Christian outrage? It certainly wasn't expressed at the voting booth. So where, then? Explain to me please why the Bible Belt keeps voting GOP in every election? Who came a hairs' width away in Alabama from electing a pedophile to represent them in Washington? And who confirmed another womanizing misogynist to sit on the Supreme Court?
Where is this vaunted Christian morality, MQ?
I think that being a mod, I'd best stay out of the political conversation on this forum so mensaguy doesn't get me. Or posters whose posts I've had to edit for being too political.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
I'm sorry, but if you expect me to believe that most Christians are good people? You'll have to do better than say so on a forum. Because what I'm seeing Out There in the real world seems to suggest just the opposite.
Now ... having said all of that. Yes, I know that not every last single Christian represents the values of Matt Shea. The problem, however, is that either all the good ones are sitting home today and not voting OR there just aren't enough of them left to make a damn bit of difference.
You know what? Maybe you're right. Maybe there are more of them than there are of us. I don't hang out with Christians who think like Matt Shea or anywhere near him. But you know, what, Shirina? I exist, and so do a lot of others. We don't give a rat's ass if someone else is atheist or what religion they may be. So what good does it do to try to alienate us by lumping us with others when WE have these commonalities in the way we think? That was my point. Those of us to whom these issues are important should not be fighting with one another. We should be coming together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Most of the Christians HERE are good people. That much is true. What's also true, though, is that even in a community as small as ours here on this forum, we still have about half a dozen Christians who, as you say, wouldn't mind. Three of them I can name straight away who would actively help Shea achieve his goals and three more who would delibately stand aside and allow it to happen just so they can have plausible deniability when atheists start the verbal smack-down.
The fact that we have even that many out of, pehaps, 30 or 40 regular posters, says a lot, really, regarding the general make-up of the US population. What's worse is that forum posters who post in topical categories like politics and religion on a modded forum, by and large, tend to be a bit more intellectual than the average person because they have a desire to debate the issues and have meaningful discussions about big issues without the flagrant name-calling and personal threats you see on un-modded forums. Having so many people on a forum like this who would openly or secretly cheer for Shae's vision is not a good sign at all.
And you know what? It won't matter. Even if this story were plastered all across every news media outlet from the New York Times to CNN to Fox News to the BBC -- even if every station, including cable, preempted the current show being aired to give a special report about his manifesto. Even if, upon starting every web browser in existence began with a webpage detailing how awful Matt Shea is, he would still get elected.
Because that's what we have become.
Have to run out now and cut this short. Will be back later.
"What would you have other Christians do? Shoot him?"
Not voting the guy back in would be good.
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