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Wherein you write two sentences, the first of which accuses the pope of thinking he knows better than a your favorite deity...
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere
Because, of course, Pope Francis knows better than the Lord!
...and the second of which acknowledges that the pope is actually contesting a translation done by a human.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere
Biblical scholars, any legitimacy to the claim that it wasn't correctly translated?
And you never even noticed your own self-contradiction, did you?
Not only that, by your query you admit that you don't even know if the translation is accurate. You also demonstrate that you really don't understand translations, because languages rarely have words that are identical matches for a word in another language, making any translation of all but the simplest single words a judgment call.
You sure packed a whole lot about yourself into those two sentences!
Wherein you write two sentences, the first of which accuses the pope of thinking he knows better than a your favorite deity...
...and the second of which acknowledges that the pope is actually contesting a translation done by a human.
And you never even noticed your own self-contradiction, did you?
Not only that, by your query you admit that you don't even know if the translation is accurate. You also demonstrate that you really don't understand translations, because languages rarely have words that are identical matches for a word in another language, making any translation of all but the simplest single words a judgment call.
You sure packed a whole lot about yourself into those two sentences!
The Greek phrase translated into English was "do not lead/guide us into temptation" because otherwise, they would have used the words and phrases for "do not let us fall into temptation" which they did have. Unless you are a Greek scholar and want to put your name and career on the idea that in Greek "leading/guiding = falling".
The Spanish versions don't care about this glaring error, however, and have translated the Greek prayer incorrectly as "do not let us fall into temptation" for many decades now. But the Spanish cultures have always been more nuanced and "who cares about the details to each his own, generally" about the wishy-washy religions they quickly take up from their parents and friends.
The Greek phrase translated into English was "do not lead/guide us into temptation" because otherwise, they would have used the words and phrases for "do not let us fall into temptation" which they did have. Unless you are a Greek scholar and want to put your name and career on the idea that in Greek "leading/guiding = falling".
The Spanish versions don't care about this glaring error, however, and have translated the Greek prayer incorrectly as "do not let us fall into temptation" for many decades now. But the Spanish cultures have always been more nuanced and "who cares about the details to each his own, generally" about the wishy-washy religions they quickly take up from their parents and friends.
So the question is whether the idea reported represented what Jesus taught. I don't recall any other indications that Jesus thought God tempts people, and we have the man reported to be his brother flatly denying that it happens.
So the question is whether the idea reported represented what Jesus taught. I don't recall any other indications that Jesus thought God tempts people, and we have the man reported to be his brother flatly denying that it happens.
Oh my God, do you people really think Jesus (if he was real and not just a historicized angel based on Joshua/Hosea) and early Christians didn't read the Book of Job or the Book of Genesis?
Where could they have gotten the idea that God tempts/tests people? Maybe from the O.T. and Jesus' supposedly validation and continuation of the O.T. in the N.T.
Quote:
God tempted Abraham to kill his son Isaac for a burnt offering.
"God did tempt Abraham ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac ... and offer him there for a burnt offering." Genesis 22:1
He (through his created and controlled vassal Satan?) tempted David to have a census.
"And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1
And Jesus says we should pray that God will not tempt us. (Which wouldn't be necessary if God never tempts anyone.)
"And lead us not into temptation." Matthew 6:13, Luke 11:4
What the hell do you guys think God was doing to Job with Satan's instigation and God's permission?
TEMPTING Job into cursing God and no longer worshiping Him.
How did God NOT TEMPT/TEST Adam and Eve in the garden when he allowed the Serpent to explain the truth of the forbidden trees/fruit to them (while still being child-like naive and lacking knowledge before eating the fruit) in order to TEMPT them?
Yahweh even controlled Saul's emotions/moods/mental-state, by sending him one of his Demons to torment/tempt Saul into severe depression and madness.
And he Personally "hardened the pharaoh's heart" when the pharaoh was about to acquiesce, in order to prevent him from acquiescing to the release of the foreign&domestic Jewish prisoners/civil-war-slaves just yet.
If that is not going BEYOND just tempting the Pharoah, I don't know what that would be for you guys.
Quote:
James
1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried (God isn't trying them?), he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him (his cronies).
1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust/desires, and enticed.
1:15 Then when lust/desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. James 1:13
God can be tempted.
One of God's 300+ commandments is "Don't tempt God."
This commandment wouldn't be necessary if it is impossible to tempt God.
Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 6:16
When the people complained about the lack of water, Moses accused them of tempting God.
Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD? Exodus 17:2
Malachi says that people who do wicked things tempt God.
They that work wickedness ... tempt God. Malachi 3:15
Jesus quoted the commandment "Don't tempt God" when he argued with Satan.
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Matthew 4:7, Luke 4:12
Peter accused those that require Gentiles to be circumcised of tempting God.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
And Judith warns the leaders not to tempt God.
Who are you that tempt the Lord? Judith 8:11
And Jesus (whom many Christians believe is God) was tempted.
Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1
Jesus ... Being forty days tempted of the devil. Luke 4:1-2
Jesus ... was in all points tempted like as we are. Hebrews 4:14-15
According to lots of Jews and Christians, God forbids you from Tempting him, and you can certainly try, but God can't be tempted anyway so you would be trying to do something you can't do, yet you can Tempt God to do things for you through prayer... but you really can't, and prayer's "beseech" purpose is meaningless.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 11-28-2018 at 11:33 AM..
So, LT, the conclusion is that those reports were wrong.
Sort of. My conclusion is that the text (religious history gathering in general) as a whole is self-contradicting and hypocritical (and needs to be to appeal to wider audiences by giving them the ear-marks they want) but can still be viewed as "not" by anyone who wishes not to view it as such.
For example, if we change the translation from "lead us not into temptation" and pretend that the Greeks meant "avert us from temptation" although they already had a word for "avert" then it would still keep the meaning of God leading people towards any and all things and of God not leading anyone into temptation but them tempting themselves. Therefore, ultimate responsibility can be rationalization-wise denied from the supposed ultimate creator/sustainer/arbiter, as is done in most religions which throw around ultimates but only as is convenient.
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