If Human Beings Are Only Animals, Why Do We Care About Morality? (spirit, best)
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The only reason I can see for placing humans into a different kingdom would be to placate religious folks such as Jeff. It's bad enough that they already doubt everything in science already but to water down everything to their level is abandoning the scientific community.
And what use is thete to lump humans, dolphins with some but not all of the corvidae species together?
I wasn't talking about placing humans into a different kingdom...and that's very important. I've said before I'd keep us in our current place in existing biology. My thoughts were that it would just make sense to add on an additional title for organisms that practice language that approaches human language complexity. Suggested "protean" as that additional title.
Some people are saying some interesting things about bottlenose dolphins that made me wonder if they might have a language in which they can create their own terms like we can. That's why I placed them and humans together.
If you don't think that makes sense...it's probably fortunate that neither of us will be around when humanity gets really good at genetic modification, because if our current classification goes un-modified until then, every new child could end up being labeled a different species, and they very plausibly could all end up being different species than their parents due to drastically different genetics. If you do somehow live till then...you'll get to try to learn to pronounce whatever weird Latin names researchers give to your great grand kids' multiple species.
Also, human-level language, so far as I can tell, allows for an entirely new method of information storage. It's like we've evolved a new form of DNA, in addition to the original stuff so far as I can tell. I'm rather confused about why nobody besides me appears to see that as a big deal...except maybe grandpa...but he may have different reasons for seeing humans as in a different category than most to all other life.
I'll elaborate on why I see the human ability to use language to communicate infinite types of information as such a huge step:
Unlike everything else on Earth, human beings don't need to go through any genetic changes to turn from hunter-gatherers to something so different as computer programmers...and that's because of our language that allows us to invent and dramatically alter our environments.
bottlenose dolphins don't have our ability to build cities, but if they have the ability to easily make up new forms of communication like we do, they'll also be able to rapidly alter their behavior...and I'm giving them a break because they don't have hands too. If they did, they might very well be building the same sorts of inventions our language allows us to invent.
But I do see humans as being unique...with exceptions being other organisms with similar language abilities...probably. They'll have different sorts of minds, different methods for storing and transferring data, more rapid adaptability, and different ways of thinking than the majority of life.
I see it as potentially misleading to include language users with other life. We divide life forms based on their genetics...but for complex language users, there is much more to them than there genetics, much more than there is for most organisms, so far as I can tell. Describing them purely based off their genetics is ignoring a lot of information about them...information that functions kind of like another form of DNA that's just not made of physical matter. That new form of DNA is called language, memes, and inventions. Without adding that into the equation, we're not describing the full human...so I think it makes perfect sense to have a new category for complex language users. It would function as, kind of, an asterisk to note that "Yeah...technically these organisms remain in their traditional category...but there's much more here than can be judged from their genetics, much more so than can be judged in most organisms."
Or...if that's not done, a more informal just, kind of, purely social acknowledgement of the above would make just as much sense.
Well, people already talk about super organisms like ant colonies. I've heard people express the idea of all life on Earth being one organism before.
However, considering that no other known planetary organisms exist outside of Earth...I don't see much need to invent a term for that organism, but someone will, and have, and I have no particular problem with that. It kind of would make sense.
The central point of my statements, though, are that...there is no reason why everyone has to follow along with only the official definitions of things when there are some very valid reasons for describing things differently...which I think I've done a decent job of depicting. If you disagree...I'm not sure what else I can say to bring you around except, it's okay to see things differently.
I wouldn't tell people they're wrong for talking about a kind of Earth super organism. That makes sense...more or less...or even if they described a kind of single Earth organism.
I'd object if they began insisting that scientific communities had to see things that way though.
I tend to agree.
Scientific communities don't insist. well, honest ones don't anway. They only look at valid, more valid, less valid. Gaia was proposed a while ago, It just looking like its more true than before is about all we can say at this point.
I think we make the next, more complex, life form in 200 years or less. you just might see it.
I'd like to see where that statement came from. ^ I've never heard that before...that dolphins and whales have languages at least as complex as those of humans. I'm pretty skeptical of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
Your arguments are based on the egotistical viewpoint of a human and 'our' language.
Not just by sign language but do you really think that animals and birds make all those 'noises' for no reason?
The funny thing about our ego is, as many pet owners can tell you, many animals have 'learned' to understand our language to a degree , even though usually simple words, but very , very few of us have ever learned ( or bothered to try) to learn theirs...Jane Goodall being one of the exceptions.
This is utterly baseless.
Humans have no problem acknowledging all manner of superior metrics in non-humans. No one thinks humans are the largest (tallest, longest, most massive) of creatures. We're not the longest-lived. All of our senses are vastly inferior to a great number of other species. We can't fly, unlike bats and many birds and insects. We can neither stand the crushing depths of the oceans where many animals thrive nor the scalding temperatures of some extremophiles. These realities are entirely uncontroversial.
So to simply dismiss the well-founded observations that human speech is more complex than those of other animals with "Ego! Ego!" is simply nonsense.
So to simply dismiss the well-founded observations that human speech is more complex than those of other animals with "Ego! Ego!" is simply nonsense.
?? In no why am I dismissing that fact except as justification for separating ourselves outside the category of animal, which I what started the whole digression.
Speaking of which, even though Clinton got me thinking about genetic alteration and some questions/discussion topics based on that but I'm opting out of any further discussion unless it gets moved to the Science forum as it has long since departed from anything related to religion and/or spirituality.
"The difference between humans and animals is so small that it doesnt warrant placing humans in a separate category"?
Thats the most preposterous thing I have read on this forum in a long time. And thats saying quite a bit
We excel in some departments over other animals and in some departments, other animals excel over us but nevertheless, we are still animals. The problem with mankind is that he has always thought he is the top arse on the planet but in reality, we excel only in intelligence. Luckily for us, intelligence is the thing of our niche. Let's see how mankind manages when resources cut out and something like strength or eyesight or the ability to withstand heat or go without food and water - becomes more important than intelligence. Go out into the desert without food and water and see who wins the race between you and a tiny lizard.
We excel in some departments over other animals and in some departments, other animals excel over us but nevertheless, we are still animals. The problem with mankind is that he has always thought he is the top arse on the planet but in reality, we excel only in intelligence. Luckily for us, intelligence is the thing of our niche. Let's see how mankind manages when resources cut out and something like strength or eyesight or the ability to withstand heat or go without food and water - becomes more important than intelligence. Go out into the desert without food and water and see who wins the race between you and a tiny lizard.
it's not really "our nich", the brain was designed to survive in all niches. well, a lot anyway.
but you have a good point.man is part of the system, he/she/it are not above it.
Not above it? Are you insane? We are kicking the systems ass
Like a cancer?
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