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Maybe not, but many Christians, including the unfortunate soul that is now worm food, believe that they have a right to force people to listen to their sales pitch even after they indicate that they aren't interested. This missionary knew that the people living on that island did not want him there selling his religion but he decided that his opinion mattered more than theirs and violated the law and all common decency to do it anyway. IMO, it was very similar to a "suicide by cop". I suspect that this guy had some mental issues, which combined with some religious indoctrination led to him developing a martyr complex. No sane person would have done what he did.
How does one "force" someone to listen to them and convert? They killed him -- he wasn't forcing them to do anything.
Originally Posted by Mike555
...
But the fact of the matter is that 1. Jesus did refer to himself as God, 2. He never promised that his disciples would not be killed, 3. he clearly stated that his apostles would be killed as per Matthew 24:9 and John 16:2. That doesn't mean that they were all martyred, but that some of them would be.
And I will leave it at that.
Transponder responded:
Don't you Love the method, Thrillo? Ignore my refutation of his position and put in a 'no reply will be listened to' last line.
Yeah, I know. But whatareyagonnado? It's Mike. (throws arms up. PS We need a shrug smilee)
No thread on CD is going to having any impact on the wider christian community.
The Impact of increased disbelief upon the wider Christian community is going Just Fine thanks We are doing what we can do here. That's going just fine, too.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-26-2018 at 04:56 PM..
Yeah, I know. But whatareyagonnado? It's Mike. (throws arms up. PS We need a shrug smilee)
I've had some of Mike before. He's good. but he Will appeal to Authority (including early Church fathers, like we can trust them), gets frustrated when I don't take his word for it and flounces off. Raffs (where's he got to?) knows, he was the first Identified Flounce. Like the Higgs -Boson of Bible apologetics.
But this isn't about analysing Mike but about scotching the efforts to make a martyred hero out of this violator (1) of Foreign law and really doing a social crime because of his egotistical take on his damfool religion, and trying to pull the old Ploy -anything good - God gets the credit, anything not so good, God has nothing to do with it.
And the wriggling! Jesus said prayers by the faithful would be answered. You think this guy didn't pray before he waded in with his shorts with the buckles dangling and his visor on backwards? And trying to equate this with God letting everyone else know his intentions beforehand. He knows about some obscure Christian scribbler swearing to anyone who would listen that a Church in Syracuse has been showing Christian tourists Jesus' actual hot water bottle at a drachma a peek and that's good enough evidence for him - but he ignores that the sons of Zebedee were warned beforehand that they would be for the chop and they said OK.
I have a lot of time for Mike555, but he's a believer after all and that means Dishonesty is part of the game. That's why we cannot give them an inch.
(1) anybody see how they are already referring to him as "John", like he was a Buddy of theirs and they can swear what a saint he was.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-26-2018 at 05:07 PM..
Maybe not, but many Christians, including the unfortunate soul that is now worm food, -*believe that they have a right to force people to listen to their sales pitch even after they indicate that they aren't interested.* Bingo!
This missionary knew that the people living on that island did not want him there selling his religion but he decided that -*his opinion mattered more than theirs * Bingo again
and violated the law and all common decency to do it anyway. IMO, it was very similar to a -*suicide by cop".* Bingo, you're very astute.
I suspect that this guy had some mental issues, which combined with some religious indoctrination led to him developing a martyr complex.
No sane person would have done what he did.
There is a wide range of opinion among scholars concerning the dating of the four Gospels. The date of AD 70 is not the view of all scholars. And again, a very good case can be made for an early date in the early 60's.
And don't talk to me about bias. Everyone has some degree of bias. Absolute objectively doesn't exist.
I'm not the one who makes grand sweeping statements. The Gospels were written by the apostles and by men (Luke and Mark) who were close associates of the apostles. They were written during the lifetime of eyewitnesses who could check on the veracity of what was written in the Gospels. Luke specifically said that he investigated carefully and wrote down the things which were passed down by those who were eyewitnesses. Oral tradition preceded the setting down in writing of the Gospel material. And scholars recognize a number of early oral creeds such as the one I already mentioned - 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which scholars believe Paul received from Peter some three years after his Damascus road encounter with Christ. That Jesus was believed to have been resurrected was a creed or tradition which existed from the beginning of the church. Paul then passed it on to the Corinthians
Show you where in Mark Jesus calls himself God? Sure. I'll show you in both Matthew and Mark where Jesus says that he is God. In both Matthew 26:64 and Mark 14:62 when the high priest Caiaphas asked Jesus if he was the Christ, the Son of God/Son of the Blessed One, Jesus responded with a statement that Caiaphas understood full well as did any Jew at that time as Jesus claiming to be God.
Jesus' response was that he would be seen coming on/with the clouds of heaven. Now why is that a statement by Jesus that he is God? To understand why you have to know a bit about the significance of the phrase 'coming on the clouds' which first century Jews did.
It goes back to the fact that Baal who was the Canaanite storm god who 'rode the clouds.' As a polemic against the Canaanite belief concerning Baal, the Old Testament writers took the idea of the one who rides the clouds and applied it to Yahweh as in Psalm 104:3 and Isaiah 19:1. It wasn't Baal who rode the clouds, it was Yahweh. But in Daniel 7:13, the verse which Jesus quoted in his response to Caiaphas, it is the Son of Man who is coming with the clouds. It is the Son of Man who is the cloud rider, which Caiaphas understood as an expression of deity. In quoting Daniel 7:13 Jesus identified himself as God which caused Caiaphas in response to declare that Jesus had spoken blasphemy and deserving of death.
Jesus as the cloud rider:
“The Cloud Rider”
Throughout the Ugaritic texts, Baal is repeatedly called “the one who rides the clouds,” or “the one who mounts the clouds.” The description is recognized as an official title of Baal. No angel or lesser being bore the title. As such, everyone in Israel who heard this title associated it with a deity, not a man or an angel.
Part of the literary strategy of the Israelite prophets was to take this well-known title and attribute it to Yahweh in some way. Consequently, Yahweh, the God of Israel, bears this descriptive title in several places in the Old Testament (Isaiah 19:1; Deuteronomy 33:26; Psalm 68:33; 104:3). For a faithful Israelite, then, there was only one god who “rode” on the clouds: Yahweh.
Until we hit Daniel 7, that is. You know the scene, but you likely don’t know the full context, since Ugaritic provides that for us:
Jesus did not deny that he was God and the verses you quoted - Mark 10:18, Matthew 19:17, and Luke 18:19 are not such a denial. Jesus' reply to the man was simply designed to get him to think about what the implication was in calling Jesus good. That since only God is good, if Jesus is good then he is God.
I make it based on the fact that the early church from the beginning understood Jesus to be God and that the deity of Jesus was not a legend that developed later. You were just shown that in both Matthew and Mark Jesus called himself God. Both Gospels are relating what Jesus said about himself at his trial.
Your insistence upon a secular historic source that says that Jesus is God ignores the fact that a secular source would never call Jesus God. Historians recognize that the Gospels themselves are the best historical sources about what the church believed about Jesus.
I've already gone over this with you. As long as God intends to keep someone alive on this earth He will protect that person from being killed. But when a person's time on this earth is up, then that person will die in some manner.
Your arguments are weak and have little weight to them. But we both know that you are going to continue to go 'Nuh uh' and I don't feel like spending any more time arguing with someone who has no intention of even trying to be objective.
But the fact of the matter is that 1. Jesus did refer to himself as God, 2. He never promised that his disciples would not be killed, 3. he clearly stated that his apostles would be killed as per Matthew 24:9 and John 16:2. That doesn't mean that they were all martyred, but that some of them would be.
Maybe not, but many Christians, including the unfortunate soul that is now worm food, believe that they have a right to force people to listen to their sales pitch even after they indicate that they aren't interested. This missionary knew that the people living on that island did not want him there selling his religion but he decided that his opinion mattered more than theirs and violated the law and all common decency to do it anyway. IMO, it was very similar to a "suicide by cop". I suspect that this guy had some mental issues, which combined with some religious indoctrination led to him developing a martyr complex. No sane person would have done what he did.
I wonder if he paid off his student loans before he got killed?...
I'm sorry, but where does Jesus promise ultimate physical protection when we go out into the world and keep us from dying? Have you even read the Bible? Most of the apostles eventually were murdered for their faith. Christ didn't shield them. You can't really claim that Jesus failed John Chau without having God's perspective on the entire reality of existence. For all you know, John's death may have planted a seed in this people. Maybe a grandfather tells the story to the next generation of the white man who they should have spared. And then the next white visitor is now welcome, the gospel gets shared this time and these people are saved.
The reality is that all of our lives are brief quick blimps when compared to eternity. IF someone can make a difference for the kingdom of God in their time here then that is certainly a good thing rather than exiting this earth a few decades later.
Anyone who is taking some enjoyment in the fact that this man was murdered is disgusting, in my book.
I agree, I guess the OP isn't among the group who actually studied the bible before attacking Christianity specifically.
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We are doing what we can do here. That's going just fine, too.
