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Okay, first off, I'm no "bible beater" by any means. However, I don't believe the "love and protection" that Jesus offers according to biblical teachings necessarily means you will be protected here on earth by Jesus. According to the Bible, we are the creations of God. And God gave man free will, so that we could choose our own path and make our own decisions. I have never read anything in the Bible that lead me to believe that God or Jesus are going to come down to earth and intercede on our behalf in mortal affairs. The salvation being offered by Jesus is for the soul, not the flesh. So the fact that this man happened to die in an attempt to spread the word of his God is absolutely not proof that God or Jesus does not exist. Jesus/God are not going to come down and save you from a car accident or a primitive tribe of people. However, according to the Bible, if you have taken Jesus as your savior, your soul will be delivered unto him, and you will dwell in paradise, after your earthly body has ceased to be the vessel of the soul. Of course, it's totally up to us if we choose to believe or not. The same freedom of choice we all have in our every endeavor. This man chose to go and attempt to spread his chosen faith to people who have never heard the words he believes in. And he died for it. Perhaps his death on behalf of his faith is just as much proof that God does exist as it is proof that he doesn't.
I must be as crazy as John Chau, going up against a mod but here goes:
First off, it's understood that in religion there ARE no facts, just opinions so here's my opinions on what you commented, Reads:
Assuming there is a God (I'm agnostic deist) God did put the means into place for humans to evolve. It's the "free will" thing that we run into trouble.
First of all the term "free will" doesn't even appear in the Bible. Second, God cannot say we have free will when the wrong choice sends us to hell. That's not free will, that's duress which defined is "pressure exerted upon a person to coerce that person to perform an act they ordinarily would not perform". True free will would be equal outcome regardless of the choice made. So what God is really offering us is not "free will" it's a "carrot or stick". Third, the idea God gave us free will is a con invented by the church to get God off the hook for some pretty disgusting things He's going to do to those who don't choose the way He wants them to. So if I choose not to accept Jesus, the churchmen drag out that tired, worn out old chestnut, "God didn't send you to hell, you sent yourself to hell."
Well, no I didn't. God is acting like a holdup man in an alley: "Give me your wallet. You have a choice not to but if you choose to I'll let you live. If you choose not to I'll blow your head off. So choose." Free will? Baloney!
Now to salvation. It's true salvation is not for the flesh, it's for the soul. But you're wrong to say the Bible doesn't promise anywhere God will protect us from physical harm. God promises to save our physical lives in dozens of places in the Bible. Here are two:
Quote:
Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life. You stretch out your hand against the anger of my foes; with your right hand you save me.
Quote:
The LORD will keep you from all harm— he will watch over your life;
These verses don't sit well with apologists because they have to two-step the equivalent of a Great Depression dance marathon to try to explain why, in the face of all these promises of protection from God Christians die by the thousands in horrific accidents, murders, wars, epidemics, and all sorts of deadly encounters with life every day of the year and God is nowhere to be seen in any of it. Some protection!
This is part of why I gave up Christianity and became deist--because it's obvious on its face that God doesn't lift a finger to protect people in this evil world. Christians die at the exact same rate as atheists so being a Christian offers absolutely no benefits in this world, only in the next if you're willing to suspend disbelief and accept on blind faith that in exchange for a lifetime of suffering for Jesus in this life you'll be rewarded with pie in the sky in the next. No, thanks, I decline. Sadly a little too late in this life.
I must be as crazy as John Chau, going up against a mod but here goes:
First off, it's understood that in religion there ARE no facts, just opinions so here's my opinions on what you commented, Reads:
Assuming there is a God (I'm agnostic deist) God did put the means into place for humans to evolve. It's the "free will" thing that we run into trouble.
First of all the term "free will" doesn't even appear in the Bible. Second, God cannot say we have free will when the wrong choice sends us to hell. That's not free will, that's duress which defined is "pressure exerted upon a person to coerce that person to perform an act they ordinarily would not perform". True free will would be equal outcome regardless of the choice made. So what God is really offering us is not "free will" it's a "carrot or stick". Third, the idea God gave us free will is a con invented by the church to get God off the hook for some pretty disgusting things He's going to do to those who don't choose the way He wants them to. So if I choose not to accept Jesus, the churchmen drag out that tired, worn out old chestnut, "God didn't send you to hell, you sent yourself to hell."
Well, no I didn't. God is acting like a holdup man in an alley: "Give me your wallet. You have a choice not to but if you choose to I'll let you live. If you choose not to I'll blow your head off. So choose." Free will? Baloney!
Now to salvation. It's true salvation is not for the flesh, it's for the soul. But you're wrong to say the Bible doesn't promise anywhere God will protect us from physical harm. God promises to save our physical lives in dozens of places in the Bible. Here are two:
These verses don't sit well with apologists because they have to two-step the equivalent of a Great Depression dance marathon to try to explain why, in the face of all these promises of protection from God Christians die by the thousands in horrific accidents, murders, wars, epidemics, and all sorts of deadly encounters with life every day of the year and God is nowhere to be seen in any of it. Some protection!
This is part of why I gave up Christianity and became deist--because it's obvious on its face that God doesn't lift a finger to protect people in this evil world. Christians die at the exact same rate as atheists so being a Christian offers absolutely no benefits in this world, only in the next if you're willing to suspend disbelief and accept on blind faith that in exchange for a lifetime of suffering for Jesus in this life you'll be rewarded with pie in the sky in the next. No, thanks, I decline. Sadly a little too late in this life.
Am I infracted for all that?
Are you under the illusion that you get an infraction for merely disagreeing with a mod?
As one of the senior mods so succinctly put it, "We are not here to moderate the truth. We are here to moderate the TOS."
It would certainly help when doing stand up comedy that is getting a bit near the PC line, to keep saying "Only kidding, only kidding!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Are you under the illusion that you get an infraction for merely disagreeing with a mod?
As one of the senior mods so succinctly put it, "We are not here to moderate the truth. We are here to moderate the TOS."
Exactly. There can be a perception (even i sometimes feel like it and joke about it) even though I know better, that the Mods are like the inquisition (without the red hats and Guy - Fawkes make -up) that will leap in through the door and seize any poster who has broken one of the many forum blasphemy laws and administer Correction and if necessary, temporary excommunication if they are sufficiently miffed.
It is almost a shock to find one actually arguing on the boards like one of us common mortals and fills one with a sense of dread to lean that a poster whom one had a debate with and to which you had dished out some tasty Home truths has been elvated like a Boddhisattva to Modhood and is even now sharpening her bolt of lightning.
But it isn't that at all. They are just like any other poster except that they have powers to step in and whack across the knuckles anyone who is getting out of line, screw up and throw in the wastebasket any essay which has the word "Wanker" in too often and can even send an infractious child out of the class.
However, I don't believe the "love and protection" that Jesus offers according to biblical teachings necessarily means you will be protected here on earth by Jesus.
I have never read anything in the Bible that lead me to believe that God or Jesus are going to come down to earth and intercede on our behalf in mortal affairs. The salvation being offered by Jesus is for the soul, not the flesh.
What then is your interpretation of the quote in the OP -
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. And these signs will accompany those who believe: they will pick up deadly snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all.â€
- because I think that very clearly appears to be discussing affairs of the flesh and not the soul - and specifically offering protections against physical effects not spiritual. If it is not meant to be read that way then you have to admit it could have been written better. Or - more fairly - it could not really have been written any worse in terms of how misleading it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH
Jesus/God are not going to come down and save you from a car accident or a primitive tribe of people.
Interesting then how often people claim exactly that has happened. Following accidents and even disasters we have numerous people crediting their survival to the intervention of a god or gods.
Though they are usually select in that application - crediting god with the good parts of the horrible event and not at all with the bad parts. We often hear a god thanked for the "miraculous" single survivor of a disaster for example - but rarely credited with the horrific deaths and injuries that accompanied it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reads2MUCH
Of course, it's totally up to us if we choose to believe or not.
The same freedom of choice we all have in our every endeavor.
As another user on here taught me - I think the only reply to that can be "speak for yourself".
Perhaps you are capable of choosing what you believe. Many - myself included - are not. I genuinely believe there are people who can put on and off belief by choice the same way I put on and off a pair of socks. But the error of such people is to assume their ability is one everyone else has.
I can not simply choose to believe something or choose to stop. I am compelled to belief by evidence - I have belief denied me by a complete lack of it.
Given the complete lack of evidence for a god and reasons to think there is one - I do not choose not to believe there is one. Nor am I afforded the choice to start believing there is one. I simply do not and can not believe there is one - until such time as evidence is forthcoming.
So when you say it is the same freedom of choice as every other endeavour I simply do not think it is. I can not simply switch on belief the same way I choose to reach out and pick up a cup.
Not a personal comment about you though of course. Our species has and has had billions of members. None of them has come forward - to my knowledge - with any evidence for a god. So I would not expect you to manage it today. But if you do come across any at any time - do let us know all the same!
It would certainly help when doing stand up comedy that is getting a bit near the PC line, to keep saying "Only kidding, only kidding!"
Exactly. There can be a perception (even i sometimes feel like it and joke about it) even though I know better, that the Mods are like the inquisition (without the red hats and Guy - Fawkes make -up) that will leap in through the door and seize any poster who has broken one of the many forum blasphemy laws and administer Correction and if necessary, temporary excommunication if they are sufficiently miffed.
It is almost a shock to find one actually arguing on the boards like one of us common mortals and fills one with a sense of dread to lean that a poster whom one had a debate with and to which you had dished out some tasty Home truths has been elvated like a Boddhisattva to Modhood and is even now sharpening her bolt of lightning.
But it isn't that at all. They are just like any other poster except that they have powers to step in and whack across the knuckles anyone who is getting out of line, screw up and throw in the wastebasket any essay which has the word "Wanker" in too often and can even send an infractious child out of the class.
I think mods have a difficult task. They often have to bend over backwards to be fair to some posters (including myself, I am sure) who get too close to falling off the edge of civility. That said, I did have a couple of instances in the Christianity room where I was infracted for trolling which wasn't my intent at all which is why I don't go in there anymore--but hey, I get that you guys and gals are making judgment calls all the time and it's tough. So let's give a shout out to the mods in here who put up with our nonsense and don't go rushing off screaming to the Sentinel islands in the process.
That partly the reason why I don't even go to Christianity forum anymore. The other is really that atheism rules here and there is plenty to do here without badgering Christians.
But I fully endorse the shout Out to the Mods, who volunteer for the task (which is thankless indeed) of keeping us in sufficient order to make it possible to have proper discussions here.
I think mods have a difficult task. They often have to bend over backwards to be fair to some posters (including myself, I am sure) who get too close to falling off the edge of civility. That said, I did have a couple of instances in the Christianity room where I was infracted for trolling which wasn't my intent at all which is why I don't go in there anymore--but hey, I get that you guys and gals are making judgment calls all the time and it's tough. So let's give a shout out to the mods in here who put up with our nonsense and don't go rushing off screaming to the Sentinel islands in the process.
This is what makes this a very good Religion site, it is not run by hardcore born again Christians, but is very liberal and open to all beliefs and non-beliefs.
Hell, I am sure even the North Sentilese have their own beliefs, which like a lot of indigenous natives is probably related to calling on the spirits of their ancestors and forefathers.
As a raised moderate Catholic, and having relatives that are Spiritualists, I have no problem with that.
This is what makes this a very good Religion site, it is not run by hardcore born again Christians, but is very liberal and open to all beliefs and non-beliefs.
Hell, I am sure even the North Sentilese have their own beliefs, which like a lot of indigenous natives is probably related to calling on the spirits of their ancestors and forefathers.
As a raised moderate Catholic, and having relatives that are Spiritualists, I have no problem with that.
As one of the senior mods so succinctly put it, "We are not here to moderate the truth. We are here to moderate the TOS."
That widow had to come from Mensaguy...
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No, thanks, I decline. Sadly a little too late in this life.
and if necessary, temporary excommunication if they are sufficiently miffed. 
and there is plenty to do here without badgering Christians.
