Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The proof is there, it is whether you believe who he said he was.
Look, I am not a fanatic as you should know (most of my time these days is arguing with Evangelicals and Fundies elsewhere) , but I do believe Jesus will save everyone eventually- even John Chau right now, regardless of his foolish mistake.
I don't regard what historians say as gospel, no pun intended, but their job is to collectively gather evidence to prove events and/or certain people ever existed.
Some of it there is no evidence for one way or the other.
A lot of the OT is not historical and is storytelling to me.
Where exactly is the proof?????? It's precisely the lack of proof that has forced many former Christians like myself to give up Christianity. They pray and nothing happens. They ask their ministers (who are in on the whole gag about Jesus being imaginary but have no other means to earn a living and so they stay in the ministry) about why jesus doesn't answer prayers and the minister just shrugs and says, "God's ways are mysterious, my child" and walks away. They have no proof to offer anybody and so that's why people are dropping out of Christianity by the millions in wealthy educated countries like the US, Canada and Europe. The "proof" is in the pudding. Millions of people praying, getting no glimmer of an answer from Jesus and thus they are concluding just like I did that Jesus doesn't exist. He many have lived 2000 years ago but he's just dust now, that's why he can't answer prayers or save souls or do anything today.
I keep telling you and offering substantial proof to you of just the opposite of what you're saying:
JESUS IS IMAGINARY. HE COULDN'T SAVE JOHN CHAU AND HE CAN'T SAVE YOU.
Where exactly is the proof?????? It's precisely the lack of proof that has forced many former Christians like myself to give up Christianity. They pray and nothing happens. They ask their ministers (who are in on the whole gag about Jesus being imaginary but have no other means to earn a living and so they stay in the ministry) about why jesus doesn't answer prayers and the minister just shrugs and says, "God's ways are mysterious, my child" and walks away. They have no proof to offer anybody and so that's why people are dropping out of Christianity by the millions in wealthy educated countries like the US, Canada and Europe. The "proof" is in the pudding. Millions of people praying, getting no glimmer of an answer from Jesus and thus they are concluding just like I did that Jesus doesn't exist. He many have lived 2000 years ago but he's just dust now, that's why he can't answer prayers or save souls or do anything today.
I keep telling you and offering substantial proof to you of just the opposite of what you're saying:
JESUS IS IMAGINARY. HE COULDN'T SAVE JOHN CHAU AND HE CAN'T SAVE YOU.
In all fairness, while you have made many valid points in this discussion, your declarations of what the missionary's ending hours and days proved...actually prove nothing "beyond shadow of doubt". I've been totally critical of missionary-ism throughout the thread, but opinion and proof are two different things, just as faith and fact are two different things.
That is after all the question of the topic. If Chau failed to survive, let alone convert these people, isn't that a good reason to suppose that Jesusgod just isn't there?
Apart from that I don't see that Thrillo speculated about his actions, though a lot of us have.
In all fairness, while you have made many valid points in this discussion, your declarations of what the missionary's ending hours and days proved...actually prove nothing "beyond shadow of doubt". I've been totally critical of missionary-ism throughout the thread, but opinion and proof are two different things, just as faith and fact are two different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
That is after all the question of the topic. If Chau failed to survive, let alone convert these people, isn't that a good reason to suppose that Jesusgod just isn't there?
Apart from that I don't see that Thrillo speculated about his actions, though a lot of us have.
Thanks much, Trans.
phetaroi, I have read about 2 dozen new articles about John Chau, picking up a lot of info about his background. Everything I've said is consistent with my conclusion that Jesus is imaginary. But when it comes to Christians and their biased closed minds I suppose it can't be said enough times:
John Chau followed Jesus' command implicitly to the letter. He went out into ALL the world--that means any part of the world he chose; Jesus didn't tell him certain areas to say out of--to preach the gospel.
Quote:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Now watch this last part because it is critical to realizing Jesus is bogus:
Quote:
And surely I am with you always”
So Jesus told John Chau to go to the Sentinal Islands to preach the gospel and to make disciples of the natives. Are you with me so far? Then Jesus promised John that he, Jesus would be with John the entire way. What was Jesus along for, just the ride? Maybe because Jesus had never seen the Sentinals and needed a traveling buddy to take the arrows for him? No, I would guess Jesus meant his words to be a promise John would be protected doing Jesus' work just as Jesus commanded him to do.
But when John got to the island, I'm sure he assumed Jesus was with him just like Jesus promised he would be.
FIRST BIG MISTAKE.
Jesus was nowhere to be seen. John was all alone. The best we can say Jesus did for John was to inspire John to instinctively hold his Bible to his chest when a young boy shot an arrow at John. The arrow struck the Bible instead of hitting John in the chest. John ran back to the boat and they all rowed away.
But failure doesn't keep a deluded Christian down, that's for sure. John tells the boatmen to row him back the next day determined to save these heathens' souls. That's the last we hear from John until helicopters circling the island sees the natives dragging a white man's body presumed to be John along the beach.
Now you tell me, phetaroi: am I off the mark to assume Jesus is imaginary from all this? If I am--if there is proof somewhere in all this that Jesus is real please point it out to me. Jesus told John to go to the Sentinals per the Bible. Fact. Jesus promised John he'd be with John to protect him per the Bible. Fact. Jesus was nowhere to be seen. Fact. Jesus didn't offer a dime's worth of protection to John. Fact.
We see the EXACT same results we'd see if a stranger went into a dangerous neighborhood and shone a spotlight on himself with a target on his back. He gets killed. So what's different about a missionary going into a dangerous part of the world where the natives are hostile. Why should we expect any different in reality if Jesus is imaginary? The fact is we shouldn't expect any different result. Both get killed. Same results with or without Jesus.
The evidence clear as crystal points to there being no Jesus. He's only in the minds of Christians. He's not real.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 12-09-2018 at 03:44 PM..
phetaroi, I have read about 2 dozen new articles about John Chau, picking up a lot of info about his background. Everything I've said is consistent with my conclusion that Jesus is imaginary. But when it comes to Christians and their biased closed minds I suppose it can't be said enough times:
John Chau followed Jesus' command implicitly to the letter. He went out into ALL the world--that means any part of the world he chose; Jesus didn't tell him certain areas to say out of--to preach the gospel.
Now watch this last part because it is critical to realizing Jesus is bogus:
So Jesus told John Chau to go to the Sentinal Islands to preach the gospel and to make disciples of the natives. Are you with me so far? Then Jesus promised John that he, Jesus would be with John the entire way. What was Jesus along for, just the ride? Maybe because Jesus had never seen the Sentinals and needed a traveling buddy to take the arrows for him? No, I would guess Jesus meant his words to be a promise John would be protected doing Jesus' work just as Jesus commanded him to do.
But when John got to the island, I'm sure he assumed Jesus was with him just like Jesus promised he would be.
FIRST BIG MISTAKE.
Jesus was nowhere to be seen. John was all alone. The best we can say Jesus did for John was to inspire John to instinctively hold his Bible to his chest when a young boy shot an arrow at John. The arrow struck the Bible instead of hitting John in the chest. John ran back to the boat and they all rowed away.
But failure doesn't keep a deluded Christian down, that's for sure. John tells the boatmen to row him back the next day determined to save these heathens' souls. That's the last we hear from John until helicopters circling the island sees the natives dragging a white man's body presumed to be John along the beach.
Now you tell me, phetaroi: am I off the mark to assume Jesus is imaginary from all this? If I am--if there is proof somewhere in all this that Jesus is real please point it out to me. Jesus told John to go to the Sentinals per the Bible. Fact. Jesus promised John he'd be with John to protect him per the Bible. Fact. Jesus was nowhere to be seen. Fact. Jesus didn't offer a dime's worth of protection to John. Fact.
We see the EXACT same results we'd see if a stranger went into a dangerous neighborhood and shone a spotlight on himself with a target on his back. He gets killed. So what's different about a missionary going into a dangerous part of the world where the natives are hostile. Why should we expect any different in reality if Jesus is imaginary? Both get killed. Same results with or without Jesus.
The evidence clear as crystal points to there being no Jesus. He's only in the minds of Christians. He's not real.
it, at the very least, points to following a literal bible/religion can end poorly for us all.
i don't care if jesus was real or not, following anybody's words as "literally true" in every case, is dangerous to people around these type of people.
it, at the very least, points to following a literal bible/religion can end poorly for us all.
i don't care if jesus was real or not, following anybody's words as "literally true" in every case, is dangerous to people around these type of people.
There's only one problem with that, Arach: Christians are obeying Jesus' words because to them these words are literally from Jesus to their ears. It's like your father promising you when you're young he'll watch out for you. You take those words to be worth gold. How could you trust his promise then if he deserted you when you needed him?
Christians believe Jesus literally spoke every word written in the gospels as if he spoke them yesterday. But here's where Christians' critical thinking skills go into the crapper. The things Jesus promise have no validity. There's never been an instance where someone prayed to Jesus openly and the desired result clearly came about about for all to see. Let me repeat that so it sinks in:
There's never been a single documented instance where someone prayed to Jesus openly and the desired result clearly came about for all to see.
Until Jesus does that I have every right to say Jesus doesn't exist. So does everyone else. Anything beyond that is blind faith pure and simple.
That is after all the question of the topic. If Chau failed to survive, let alone convert these people, isn't that a good reason to suppose that Jesusgod just isn't there?
Apart from that I don't see that Thrillo speculated about his actions, though a lot of us have.
The title of the thread...taken at face value...no. It does not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is imaginary.
There's only one problem with that, Arach: Christians are obeying Jesus' words because to them these words are literally from Jesus to their ears. It's like your father promising you when you're young he'll watch out for you. You take those words to be worth gold. How could you trust his promise then if he deserted you when you needed him?
Christians believe Jesus literally spoke every word written in the gospels as if he spoke them yesterday. But here's where Christians' critical thinking skills go into the crapper. The things Jesus promise have no validity. There's never been an instance where someone prayed to Jesus openly and the desired result clearly came about about for all to see. Let me repeat that so it sinks in:
There's never been a single documented instance where someone prayed to Jesus openly and the desired result clearly came about for all to see.
Until Jesus does that I have every right to say Jesus doesn't exist. So does everyone else. Anything beyond that is blind faith pure and simple.
personally? I feel you have every right to say that. i have no idea how people think jesus, as taught by literalist, is real.
died, woke up, and flew away for our sins? really? magically answers prayer? no way.
The title of the thread...taken at face value...no. It does not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is imaginary.
Let me ask you, phetaroi: what would it take to convince you Jesus is not real? Maybe you already believe he isn't real and are just making a point, in which case if you approach from the angle I cannot prove a negative then you'd be right. I cannot prove God doesn't exist and anybody who tries is a fool. It's an item taken on faith whether one is a believer or an atheist.
Jesus however is another case. While I cannot prove a negative I can approach the problem by making my case prima facie--here's the definition:
Quote:
A prima facie case is the establishment of a legally required rebuttable presumption. A prima facie case is a cause of action or defense that is sufficiently established by a party's evidence to justify a verdict in his or her favor, provided such evidence is not rebutted by the other party.
So in its simplest form I say "Jesus isn't alive today. Why? because we haven't seen nor heard from him in 2000 years."
This is simple enough to have a real person declared dead, the way a wife does when a spouse disappears. After a certain number of years it is presumed the person is dead in absentia. Here's the legal definition for that:
Quote:
if there is circumstantial evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is deceased on the balance of probabilities, jurisdictions may agree to issue death certificates without any such order. For example, passengers and crew of the RMS Titanic who were not rescued by the RMS Carpathia were declared legally dead soon after Carpathia arrived at New York City.
In Jesus case we have a man who said he'd go on living after he died. We have no evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe he's still alive 2000 years later. We haven't any appearances; we haven't any credible witnesses; we haven't a shred of proof --photos, videos--of Jesus anywhere.
A reasonable person would conclude Jesus alive today is ridiculous and say, "No, he's dead". So the notion Jesus is alive today and working in the world right now is a fiction making Jesus no more real than Harry Potter.
Let me ask you, phetaroi: what would it take to convince you Jesus is not real? Maybe you already believe he isn't real and are just making a point, in which case if you approach from the angle I cannot prove a negative then you'd be right. I cannot prove God doesn't exist and anybody who tries is a fool. It's an item taken on faith whether one is a believer or an atheist.
Jesus however is another case. While I cannot prove a negative I can approach the problem by making my case prima facie--here's the definition:
So in its simplest form I say "Jesus isn't alive today. Why? because we haven't seen nor heard from him in 2000 years."
This is simple enough to have a real person declared dead, the way a wife does when a spouse disappears. After a certain number of years it is presumed the person is dead in absentia. Here's the legal definition for that:
In Jesus case we have a man who said he'd go on living after he died. We have no evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe he's still alive 2000 years later. We haven't any appearances; we haven't any credible witnesses; we haven't a shred of proof --photos, videos--of Jesus anywhere.
A reasonable person would conclude Jesus alive today is ridiculous and say, "No, he's dead". So the notion Jesus is alive today and working in the world right now is a fiction making Jesus no more real than Harry Potter.
Well, a great deal of this is to make a point.
But as far as do I believe Jesus existed? I don't know. 50-50. And if he did exist, I believe he was just a man...a teacher of sorts. I don't believe in all the "magic".
What I am complaining about is a statement that you make: "Dead Missionary Proves Beyond Shadow Of Doubt Jesus Is Imaginary". No. It simply does not prove that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's precisely the lack of proof that has forced many former Christians like myself to give up Christianity. They pray and nothing happens. They ask their ministers (who are in on the whole gag about Jesus being imaginary but have no other means to earn a living and so they stay in the ministry) about why jesus doesn't answer prayers and the minister just shrugs and says, "God's ways are mysterious, my child" and walks away. They have no proof to offer anybody and so that's why people are dropping out of Christianity by the millions in wealthy educated countries like the US, Canada and Europe. The "proof" is in the pudding. Millions of people praying, getting no glimmer of an answer from Jesus and thus they are concluding just like I did that Jesus doesn't exist. He many have lived 2000 years ago but he's just dust now, that's why he can't answer prayers or save souls or do anything today. 
