Metaphor or real: Jesus went thru walls, walked on water? (myth, gospels)
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Pastor Kenneth Hagin reported that Jesus Christ visited Him about four times , as Jesus came out of the blue and His was there taking to Him were Jesus had ancient Roman sandals on .... Then a Believer called St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1700s in Italy who in his passion of faith would fly in the air ....... Were Jesus walked on water which would be the same as flying ......
Pastor Kenneth Hagin reported that Jesus Christ visited Him about four times , as Jesus came out of the blue and His was there taking to Him were Jesus had ancient Roman sandals on .... Then a Believer called St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1700s in Italy who in his passion of faith would fly in the air ....... Were Jesus walked on water which would be the same as flying ......
I know 2 women that at 15, up to no good going to friends' to get into trouble - that were stopped dead in their tracks and both had Jesus appear in front of them...changed their lives...one is Mary Baker in her 80s now ...if she is still with us....stands by every second of what happened to her to this day.
I certainly believe every word! ( I like K.Hagin, a lot.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_walking_on_water
Still, some scholars have held the view that while this event took place, it was not miraculous: Albert Schweitzer, for example, suggested that the disciples saw Jesus walking on the shore, but were confused by high wind and darkness; some scholars who accept this "misperception thesis" argue that Mark originally wrote that Jesus walked on the seashore rather than on the shore, and that John had a more accurate version
It really surprised me that someone like Albert Schweitzer would have read the gospels so literally. There are so many precursors to walking on water:
Noah
Parting of the Red Sea
Jonah
There is also a passage in the gospels where Jesus and his disciples walk over a brook. I don't see how anyone can read these stories literally.
The more important thing to focus on is actually the MESSAGE of Jesus on how to live a morally conscious and peaceful life where we should practice to be generous and more forgiving towards others.
Whether Jesus walked on water or passed through the walls, doesn’t make much of a difference on how we live our day to day life - but his message will, if we choose to have faith in him.
That's just dumb. How can you have Faith in someone you don't believe existed? Without that, the message is just the opinions of a bunch of people. What's so special about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
The message is what is important? So it makes no difference if the rest of the tale is devoted to bull.... um, nonsense? ....
You were right the first time. But at least GoCard seems to accept that the story itself isn't credible and some other excuse has to be fudged up to try to persuade us that it's "Relevant". Overall, it isn't. Not any more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
I say so because the Bible says so. The Bible settles it, not me.
No, you can't shuffle off the responsibility. YOU have free will to believe it or not. Saying the Buck stops with the Bible is desp...meal...hyp...it isn't vey good, y'know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
What does 1600 years of Islam and the Koran settle then... one wonders? Not to mention 2500 years of Buddhism and 4,000 years of Hinduism.
And doubt and skepticism has lasted even longer despite unending persecution more persistent than Christianity got from Rome or was dished out to Christianity by the Muslims. And here we are - and getting stronger If we don't start Orcrumbles ).
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-26-2018 at 06:10 PM..
2000 years of Christianity exists ONLY because Emperor Constantine by the flip of a coin chose Hesus Kristos as the official god for his Roman Empire. From there the newly emboldened Christians killed, burned and otherwise destroyed anything and everything that differed from their stated beliefs. The rich literature that had been accumulated over the centuries in the Library of Alexandria was burnt to the ground by Christian fanatics.
Hold a knife to anyone's throat and you can make Christians out of them. That's how Christianity stuck around for 2000 years and why you're not worshiping Krishna or Mithra today.
Yes. Apart from a painting over the Post Constantine subversion of the Emperor to the New church while ii set about rubbing out all rival religions, it destroyed the last of the Library. First burned by Julius Caesar (unintentionally) it persisted until the Christian Roman Empire.
I still say that "Agora" should be a Icon -film for atheism as Hypatia is something of a scientific martyr, and moreover martyred by Christianity. And unlike a Christian Pain in the Ass being treated as a Martyred saint, she only asked to be left alone.
This touches on the 'Miracle' problem. It's one where i think Atheists may field a false argument. Some of you may have heard my view on this - You cannot dismiss these claims of miracles because "Miracles don't happen". Sure they don't - that's why they're Miracles.
If Jesus was given the power to do magical stuff to show that he was divine, then of course he would do crap that people normally didn't do. He was a one -off.
So 'Miracles don't happen" is not a valid argument (Lordie, what an apologist Theism loses in me). But evidence of fabrication is.
I have to disagree with you on this one.
It goes back to the old saying, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
And there's no evidence whatsoever outside of the Bible that any such miracles took place.
Fact is, miracles don't happen. There are mysteries from time to time that we haven't fully explained, but miracles? There is no evidence to speak of that shows that magic, the supernatural, or a divine being is responsible for any so-called miracle.
Until there is good and sufficient evidence, claims of miracles can be immediately dismissed. Otherwise, one would be arguing from ignorance - "We don't know what caused that so it must be a miracle!"
Not only that, but one must sufficiently prove that there is/was a God and is/was a divine Jesus (not just a mortal Jesus) before we can even argue whether he walked on water or not. To argue over whether any of Jesus' miracles were real or not is like arguing over what games some as-of-yet unidentified and undiscovered alien species likes to play. How about we discover the species first and prove that they even exist - or even play games at all?
Well argued. But I feel that this is one where appeal to unknowns can field a point. We don't know that such a thing can be impossible. After all the way the world works is that something does not come from nothing and Life does not come from non-life (which is to say the DNA mechanism that transforms bio -material into life had to come from somewhere). But science argues that this must have happened but cannot prove it.
Similarly to claim miracles without evidence is valueless.
But we have the apparently historical record of the Gospels that such a thing did - just once - happen, and even explains why. Thus, I argue that the historical record itself is not reliable. That does then leave the claim without value, as you say.
No, you can't shuffle off the responsibility. YOU have free will to believe it or not. Saying the Buck stops with the Bible is desp...meal...hyp...it isn't vey good, y'know.
If that's true, why do you keep denying the truth?
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