Suicide Rate Now Highest in 50 Years, Way to Go, Atheists!! (Catholicism, Christianity)

[303Guy]

Originally Posted by Arach Angle

and you present another reason why I am not anti-religious. "pray" at the most basic level works. Its why I can't say "prayer doesn't work". It most certainly doesn't work over everything and over professional help. And there is no magic that will magically cure depression.


and, like you pointed out here, it becomes an issue of what the people are doing in the church, it most certainly is not religions fault.

I hope that wasn't too hostile, lmao, too hostile. too funny.

where you from?

I'm in New Zealand.

I suspect that prayer in itself can be comforting to the ones doing the praying. When my son died I had nowhere to turn. I had to face it on my own - I'm not sure how much comfort a religious person would actually derive from religion. My ex-wife used to say I must be so strong and that she could not do it without God and she had a lot more to deal with than I did. She had to bear the knowledge of having been the abusive parent. Which makes the OP seem so ironical to me. She being the born again Christian and being the actual cause of her own son's suicide.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by 303Guy

I'm in New Zealand.

I suspect that prayer in itself can be comforting to the ones doing the praying. When my son died I had nowhere to turn. I had to face it on my own - I'm not sure how much comfort a religious person would actually derive from religion. My ex-wife used to say I must be so strong and that she could not do it without God and she had a lot more to deal with than I did. She had to bear the knowledge of having been the abusive parent. Which makes the OP seem so ironical to me. She being the born again Christian and being the actual cause of her own son's suicide.

I am so very, very, very sorry.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I don't have the time or energy to respond to every post so it's another false assertion that I'm ignoring your post..

Yet no one asked you to respond to _every_ post did they? So the only false assertion here is your own not mine. What I was commenting on was not "every" post but the consistency in your behaviour. Which is - like it or not - so far to respond on average to about 1 in every 10 to 15 of my posts over the years. So the comment that you tend to ignore posts is the opposite of false assertion - but true and valid evaluation of the data.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

It would be nice if the forum wasn't so overwhelmingly anti-Christian.

I do not think it is that anti Christian at all. I think it is very much anti _your_ brand of Christianity. And I am glad of that because you represent a pretty toxic brand of it. And it is interesting to observe that a huge proportion of the push back you get against your views is as much from theists and other Christians as it is from atheists. That you want to spin that as "anti Christian forum" is comical therefore but it certainly is not valid.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Ok, so I guess a study done by a school of psychology is completely worthless. Let's make sure to never fund studies again since they are not evidence in your world.

Well "guess" would be the only useful word you wrote here because that is not at all what I said. Alas another consistent behaviour in your MO is to ignore what people actually said and make up your own more noxious version. Or - as in this case - to 100% ignore what they said and reply to something you not only made up but which does not even _remotely_ resemble the thing you are replying to.

So I will merely repeat what you just ignored which is that statistics do not even _remotely_ back up your position here. Because you are attempting to blame suicide rates over an entire and massive population on the world view of one of the smallest minorities in that population. Which is simply an agenda driven nonsense from you from start to finish.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Here's another for you. The countries on the 2018 ranking which are dominantly non-religious like France, Japan, Norway, Switzerland, Denmark are pretty high up on the suicide list. Care to explain why?

I already did. You just ignored that too. Ignore being the main MO you work with over and over.

Also - The biggest fail in your approach to this topic is that you appear to want to seek simplistic 1:1 explanations for a massively complex social statistic. As if something massively complex - involving multiple and varied factors - like suicide has some simple soundbite explanation we can just type up and shove in a fortune cookie for you to swallow.

The reality outside your simplistic and agenda driven world view on the matter is that the socio-economic explanations for things like suicide are legion and diverse. There are all kinds of explanations and drivers for what causes it - what prevents it - and how we report it.

Differences in economic status is one - difference in education is another - differences in religion and lack of it is indeed another - and even differences in reporting it is another as in some countries cases of suicide are recorded and reported as something else. Especially in countries where an evaluation of suicide would effect things like the pay out of life insurance to the families.

You _want_ there to be a single explanation and you _want_ it to be something to do with atheism. But outside that deep and powerful desire you have not a shred of actual data or evidence that suggests any actual causal link at all here.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I've dealt with your kind long enough to know it is a waste of time to present evidence.

I've dealt with "your kind" long enough to know that when you have no evidence to present you instantly reach for sentences like this one to pretend you do - but there is some magical reason you are withholding it. You do not _have_ the evidence to present and you are covering up that with a lie basically.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And when I tested the waters here, it was laughed at because that's really the driving force for atheists in these discussion.

No you were laughed at - and rightly so - for having a naive and agenda driven simplistic view of society where you think a massively complex metric can be explained away with a single point of mediation. And you very much should be laughed at for clinging to such a nonsense. And you should be double laughed at for defending that world view with nothing more than the cop out of "Well I would give evidence for my position but"

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Atheists are merely fooling themselves by putting up shields and barriers that once stripped away, they realize how hollow, meaningless and hopeless their life is.

More of your navel gazing without matching it to reality. The real reality however is that atheists have generally no issue at all with finding meaning and hope in life. Especially the atheists on this forum who have lined up time and time again to explain and cherish their sources of meaning and value in life. It is you fooling yourself by consistently ignoring _all_ of that - and inventing a narrative of what and how atheists thing of your own invention that in no way matches any of what you ignored.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

What would you tell the mother who lost her entire family in a freak accident on the normally fun and enjoyable Branson Ride the Ducks boat?

I talk to such people all the time and the things I tell them are tailored to their specific character and situation and context. Because there are many such things that one can say in such situations. What I do not do - and I see neither benefit nor merit in doing - is to tell them lies or things I have absolutely no evidence for.

I myself have lost people near and dear to me too. And some of the meaning and value I find in my life is to cherish and honour their memory by taking the best of them and incorporating it into the best of me. Continuing on their legacy and cherishing and perpetuating their memory is one of the sources of meaning in my life. Much more so than merely pretending they are still alive and smiling down from magical la-la land at me somewhere in order to delude myself out of grief by ignoring it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Sorry, but that stance really comes off as a big copout.

Given your "I would give some evidence but" approach to conversation you are on no pedestal from which to accuse - especially falsely - anyone else on this forum of coping out of anything. You are the only one actually doing it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Why ever study anything again if all you can do is throw out the correlation and causation defense. In my book, anything that even remotely suggests a certain reality is evidence. Tiny evidence is still evidence.

Thankfully actual science and study does not work off your "book" then. That you think the correlation-causation problem invalidates the value of studying anything at all just belies your ignorance of the Scientific Method.

You see no one study is definitive in this kind of science. You determine to cherry pick and hold out in isolation any single study you think can be twisted to validate your anti atheist hatreds and agendas. But that is simply not how such studies work.

The reality is however that studies of this nature have to be taken as a body of work that in unison push back the shadows of human ignorance and reveal actual truths. When we find a correlation we then go on to construct and implement further studies to explore that correlation for the causal factors between them.

The biggest error the complete lay person like yourself tends to make is to assume there is some causal link between two statistics "A" and "B". In this case A being Atheism and B being rates of Suicide. More often than not however the explanation lies in some "C" which is causing both "A" and "B" and in fact "A" and "B" are not influencing each other _at all_.

I gave you - ignored as per your usual MO - one possible example of this. Which is that higher levels of Intelligence have been causally linked with both Atheism and Depression. Your link did not in any way normalize for that. But it is one possible "C" in the "A" "B" "C" dynamic I describe.

I then gave you - yet again dodged and ignored by you - another possible example as it is the same error you so desperately do you best to repeat time and again in discussions about homosexuality. Which is that being in a minority group - especially a despised or attacked one - correlates with depression and suicide too.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

OTOH in the US, you have atheists doing stuff like forming their own churches because they desperately need to fill that void.

Here I agree. I do indeed think such atheists are trying to fill a void. I just do not think it is the void _you_ are desperate to pretend it it - a void for religion or god.

Atheists and Theists are humans. And humans are a social animal requiring social constructs and supports. The biggest real void such atheists are filling therefore is simply that one. And it is one they can fill without making up lies or stories about our universe and our place in it.

You see no one - despite what you might want to pretend to believe - is saying that no one ever gets anything positive from religion. What we _are_ saying is that there is nothing positive one gets from religion that can not be obtained without it - without lies and fantasies - and without the existence of a god.

And as atheism continues to be one of the fastest growing minorities we are going to have to make that transition more and more - to find the things we as humans actually do need and require and to find them from other sources. And in that transition some people are going to become disillusioned - depressed - and even suicidal.

And we must - and many of us do - work on that. Despite people like you attempting to spin it so dishonestly to fill an agenda - as if it is atheism in and of itself that is the causal factor for such depression.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

While you completely reject the possibility that I am right, you offer zero counter evidence.

"Counter" evidence can only be provided against "evidence" and you yourself openly admit to not having presented any _and_ to not intending to present any.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If atheists are not causing the higher suicide rate then what is? Nothing you say here shows me that I'm wrong either.

Only because you ignore most of it. As I said though the causes of suicide rates from country to country are multiple. Not some single explanation that will fit neatly into a simplistic 1:1 world view like your own.

However if your low brow demands for simplicity really require _some_ kind of answer you can wrap your head around I would say one of the more obvious explanations for increasing suicide across multiple societies is the increasing demands on our time and resources. Certainly in my own country where suicide is becoming more of an issue over time - we find people working longer hours to make ends meet and having less time to spend on their children and their own well being. In turn children are therefore growing up with less time being spent with their parents and their developmental upbringing.

Further there is the effect of the media on our world which I think is a second obvious causal factor in suicide. We can read a book like "The better angels of our nature" which takes a comprehensive look at statistics on crime and violence and hate in our world and shows things are getting better every day. But you look at our media - especially the click bait versions of it - and think our world is descending ever deeper into chaos, hate, violence, rape, sex crimes, poverty, war, terrorism and doom.

Then there is the monster of social media - most notably facebook and twitter - which our society and species still has not come to terms with. Even their own creators are only recently starting to open their eyes up to the monster they have brought into being. And unlike your world view there are actual studies coming out over time now - just in the beginning of research - showing how harmful these platforms are to our well being and mental health at this time. Especially that of our youth.

Further social media has the ability to exacerbate problems that have caused suicide in the past. The most obvious example of this is Bullying. When I was a child a bullied kid was generally only and solely bullied on the way to school and-or on the way home and-or in the lunch break. Now the bullies can follow these children around 24-7. And if a child attempts to remove themselves from social media to avoid it - which they generally do not - they suffer basically the new age equivalent of social isolation, shunning and of being "the other".

So more and more our youth are being depressed by news and social media - while more and more the demands on parents is removing them from a position to counter act that negativity - and this matrix of effect is one of the greatest impacts on suicide rates that I see in our world. Not some minority group of atheists that you personally hate and want to indict with anything you can smear them with.

Finally there is the simple fact of increasing populations. This too had massive effects on the rates of suicide in our world. It means more competition. More feelings of inadequacy. And less resources and time to dedicate to individuals who are depressed or failing or suffering. People are committing suicide more simply because we are unable to mediate their suffering in an ever growing population.

So there is a _string_ of answers to the conundrum of suicide in populations. Feel free to cherry pick and ignore them as is your wont.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

And this is why I'm seriously thinking about abandoning the CD forum. You don't know me. I don't know you. Why the vitriol? Yuck.

And this is the real reason you are probably thinking of leaving the forum. You imagine "vitriol" where none actually existed. People these days often seem to think "vitriol" is somehow a synonym for any level of disagreement with a statement. Someone does not agree with something you say - and it is automatically somehow a personal attack or affront.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Are you that invested in your own opinion that you can't consider the honest sharing of another human being?

Are you that invested in your own opinion that you can't consider the honest response to another human being as having been "considered"? I did consider your "honest sharing" - which is why I was able to respond to it and explain why it was an error.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

And there's this: You're wrong. LOL.

Except no I am not because what I said is 100% valid and correct. The clue is - as I said - in the very name NDE. "Near" death experience. You experienced what it was and is like to come "near" to death. You did not - however - die. Therefore you have no experience of death.

Now you can shout "wrong" over and over if you like to make yourself feel better. But until you can explain exactly how and why someone is wrong - then merely shouting "wrong" is just white noise.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Nope.

Well that tells everything here - doesn't it. You complain about other people not being open and being invested in their own opinion. Yet of everyone here you are the one that openly and proudly admits you are not at all open to the possibility you are wrong.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

I bled out and died. I was clinically dead for more than 10 minutes. I don't like the term NDE because it sounds like we were "near death." Nope. I was gone, chief.

Nope. You were not. But this is a very common misunderstanding in those with no medical knowledge or training and one we can openly discuss.

You see there is a large difference between "death" and "clinical death". When you say you were "clinically dead" it pays to understand what exactly that means.

As one link puts it "Clinical Death: This type of death occurs when the heart stops pumping and can be revived if early medication is given. Biological Death: This type of death occurs only after 4–6 minutes of Clinical death. This is due to the brain getting an irreversible damage because of blood not flowing."

Basically if you attain "Clinical Death" this in no way means you were _actually_ dead. It just doesn't. No matter how much you might want to conflate the two terms within the structure of a narrative.

So as much as you might not like the term NDE - it remains accurate. And that accuracy is not diluted by your disdain for it.

It is interesting to note that coming close to death is transformative for many people. Not just you. And many of those people who were transformed as powerfully as you claim to have been - had no NDE and no religious experience or narrative either. Yet their transformation - and the power it has over them - is no less real than your own.

[LuminousTruth]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

My husband killed himself in April 2016. I lost every single thing a human being can lose. And starting over in your late 50s ain't easy. Emotionally and spiritually, I was circling the drain until about three months ago (September 2018), and during a minor surgery, I bled out and died. I was clinically dead for more than 10 minutes. I don't like the term NDE because it sounds like we were "near death." Nope. I was gone, chief.

When I came back to this world, I realized that I felt like God Himself had hit the reset button. That experience changed me, and lifted the heavy burden of grief and sorrow from my soul.

My life gets better and better every day. So many wonderful things are happening. I have been released from that crippling emotional pain, sadness, guilt, regret and more.

And after I came back, I found that several long-term physical problems are gone, such as arthritic joints, chronic back pain and poor hearing. I have truly been restored. Honestly, the physical is the least of it. I have been freed by the grace of God.

What you are saying here is that no Atheist could lose their loved one in their late 50s and then bleed out under anesthesia for a minor surgery, be unconscious (probably with blood transfusions, etc. otherwise it would be a very macabre hospital/surgeon-group) for 10 minutes, and come back to consciousness feeling "reset" and "changed" and also while staying Atheist. That is just not the case. It is not even as it related to your particular denomination nor religion, so why should it be supernatural magic of any kind.

We also know of cases of the religious saying they have been cured of blindness, and forging doctor's documents because researchers that were attemptedly duped have followed up on the documents and the doctors have assured them that the "patient" in question wasn't their's nor had they ever diagnosed anyone with any kind of blindness that was then reported to them as cured or checked up as such.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by monumentus

...

I do not think it is that anti Christian at all. I think it is very much anti _your_ brand of Christianity. And I am glad of that because you represent a pretty toxic brand of it. And it is interesting to observe that a huge proportion of the push back you get against your views is as much from theists and other Christians as it is from atheists. That you want to spin that as "anti Christian forum" is comical therefore but it certainly is not valid.

...

So I will merely repeat what you just ignored which is that statistics do not even _remotely_ back up your position here. Because you are attempting to blame suicide rates over an entire and massive population on the world view of one of the smallest minorities in that population. Which is simply an agenda driven nonsense from you from start to finish.

...

Also - The biggest fail in your approach to this topic is that you appear to want to seek simplistic 1:1 explanations for a massively complex social statistic. As if something massively complex - involving multiple and varied factors - like suicide has some simple soundbite explanation we can just type up and shove in a fortune cookie for you to swallow.

...

I've dealt with "your kind" long enough to know that when you have no evidence to present you instantly reach for sentences like this one to pretend you do - but there is some magical reason you are withholding it. You do not _have_ the evidence to present and you are covering up that with a lie basically.

...

More of your navel gazing without matching it to reality. The real reality however is that atheists have generally no issue at all with finding meaning and hope in life. Especially the atheists on this forum who have lined up time and time again to explain and cherish their sources of meaning and value in life. It is you fooling yourself by consistently ignoring _all_ of that - and inventing a narrative of what and how atheists thing of your own invention that in no way matches any of what you ignored.

...

I myself have lost people near and dear to me too. And some of the meaning and value I find in my life is to cherish and honour their memory by taking the best of them and incorporating it into the best of me. Continuing on their legacy and cherishing and perpetuating their memory is one of the sources of meaning in my life. Much more so than merely pretending they are still alive and smiling down from magical la-la land at me somewhere in order to delude myself out of grief by ignoring it.

...


Thankfully actual science and study does not work off your "book" then. That you think the correlation-causation problem invalidates the value of studying anything at all just belies your ignorance of the Scientific Method.

You see no one study is definitive in this kind of science. You determine to cherry pick and hold out in isolation any single study you think can be twisted to validate your anti atheist hatreds and agendas. But that is simply not how such studies work.

The reality is however that studies of this nature have to be taken as a body of work that in unison push back the shadows of human ignorance and reveal actual truths. When we find a correlation we then go on to construct and implement further studies to explore that correlation for the causal factors between them.

The biggest error the complete lay person like yourself tends to make is to assume there is some causal link between two statistics "A" and "B". In this case A being Atheism and B being rates of Suicide. More often than not however the explanation lies in some "C" which is causing both "A" and "B" and in fact "A" and "B" are not influencing each other _at all_.

...

...

Here I agree. I do indeed think such atheists are trying to fill a void. I just do not think it is the void _you_ are desperate to pretend it it - a void for religion or god.

...

You see no one - despite what you might want to pretend to believe - is saying that no one ever gets anything positive from religion. What we _are_ saying is that there is nothing positive one gets from religion that can not be obtained without it - without lies and fantasies - and without the existence of a god.

...

And we must - and many of us do - work on that. Despite people like you attempting to spin it so dishonestly to fill an agenda - as if it is atheism in and of itself that is the causal factor for such depression.

...

However if your low brow demands for simplicity ...

...

So there is a _string_ of answers to the conundrum of suicide in populations. Feel free to cherry pick and ignore them as is your wont.

My highest compliments to you Monumentus. This is, perhaps, the best post I've ever read in this entire forum on religion.

I wanted to comment on a few of the things that you said...not to disagree...but in general to support what you said here.

In the first paragraph that I cited above, you make three very good points. First, at least in my own life, it is that "brand" of christianity that I find so offensive. And I think that's a very good way of phrasing it. There are three groups of people that I deal with regularly who are christians, and I don't find them or their attitudes to be offensive at all. One group are the members in my Overeaters Anonymous group. As far as I can tell, I'm the only non-christian in the group (I'm Buddhist and an atheist). There are what you might call prayers at the meeting, but the literature and they themselves take pains to point out that when they talk about a "higher power", what the higher power means to each individual may vary greatly and may have nothing to do with god...it could, for example, be the higher power of one's conscience. They're not a bit pushy about religion, and they are as interested in some comment I may make about Buddhism (such as this past week when we talked about meditation being a tool) as they are about anything that is christian related. The second group that I interact with, albeit briefly, are people who work at the church where those meetings are held...they're Mennonites. What nice, kind, gentle people I've met there. Nothing pushy in the least. And then there are a number of friends that I have who attend a nearby Methodist Church. Not once has any of them been the least bit pushy about their religion, and occasionally they invite me to events at the church...but they're not the events that would in any way try to convince a non-believer to convert. And then there's that other group of christians -- such as the "brand" you were responding to -- whom I detest. And you talked about "push back". With many christians I have no desire to "push back" at all. And then there are others, such as a couple on this forum, that are so detestable than I feel the absolute need to push back on. They invite it by their rudeness, their ignorance, and their total lack of respect of other's beliefs and common sense.

In the second paragraph I cited above, you mentioned the "agenda driven nonsense" of these right wing christians. So very true, and let's face it, much of that agenda driven nonsense is based on "talking points" that the religious right has repeated over and over as they do battle against the rights of others people, whether those people be gay or of other religions or believe that certain medical practices should be legal. They are mean, nasty, and egotistical people.

In the third paragraph I cited above, you mention simplistic explanations for complex topics. How very true. The whole Noah's Ark thing is a good example of that. But it is a problem well beyond this topic and this part of the forum. All too many people today think everything is "either" "or", good or evil, right or wrong. And most things are far more complex than that.

In the fifth and sixth paragraphs above that I cited, you do an excellent job of pointing out that so many things that are important in our lives either have nothing to do with faith, or do not require faith to be a valued part of our lives. And I find it bizarre when right wing christians cannot conceive of atheists, or Buddhists, or Hindus, or Sikhs, or _______ having meaningful, productive lives. To put it simply -- they need to get out more.

As a person who has two degrees in geology, I very much like your discussion of the way science works. You mention cherry picking. I'm actually a believer in cherry picking depending on what's being cherry picked. Cherry picking principles is valid; but all too many christians swallow everything handed to them without question. On the other hand, those same christians will cherry pick facts...and facts shouldn't be cherry picked. The big problem I have with some christians is their inability to even be able discern the difference between faith and fact.

And you're so right that many of is the atheist corner do understand that people get positive things from "religion". But christians don't seem to be able to comprehend that that's not just for them...that people who believe in other faiths also get positive things from their religions.


I loved your phrase "low brow demands for simplicity".

So once again, my compliments on a superb post.

[monumentus]

Thank you for your feedback, it is as always appreciated. Even if just to know that when I write something long - someone else actually does read it I mean I do hope people click the "Rate This post positively" button sometimes as I use my post:Reputation ratio as an indicator on whether I should keep posting. But clicking that button does not always mean someone read the actual post

Originally Posted by phetaroi

In the first paragraph that I cited above, you make three very good points. First, at least in my own life, it is that "brand" of christianity that I find so offensive

Yes I think there is a whole continuum of people representing Christianity. Even the Bible acknowledges this when it tells us that we shall know them by their fruit.

I think at one end of the continuum lies people like Kenneth Miller and Destin Sandin, Matt Whitman, and even the adorable Richard Coles. These people give Christianity a good name. So much so that I even plan to start listening to Matt Whitman's "One minute Bible Hour" channel even though I am entirely "atheist". Such people represent Christianity with such honesty, beauty, and purity of spirit that even when Christianity is not for you - you still find yourself wanting to learn all you can about them and it.

At the other end you have your Westboro Baptist types who rain down judgement and hatred on all those they personally hate. Usually atheists and homosexuals. But others too.

And if you put a line right in the middle of that contiuum I think most Christians lie on the Miller-Coles side of it by far. Some so far like nateswift that they barely seem to be all that religious at all. Just generally mostly nice people.

But a couple of users - thankfully not many - lie far far far on the other side of that dividing line. Not all the way up at Westboro level. But closer to it than that half way line. And I think _those_ users get most of our push back and _those_ users have the persecution narrative and lack of self-awareness going that tells them to interpret this as being anti Christianity as a whole. Failing to notice - as they do - that much of the strongest push back is coming from _other Christians_.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

They're not a bit pushy about religion, and they are as interested in some comment I may make about Buddhism

Wonderful! I hope you know how lucky you are to find such a group as the experience many people have of AA and similar "A" groups is the opposite where religion is pushed heavily and evangelized with gusto. Often leaving participants disillusioned not just with AA and religion - but with all self help groups of any kind! My own opinion of AA groups and other "higher power" groups is generally worse than low. But when a good group gets together and it really works - it can be wonderful. And you should cherish that you have found something that is much more rare than it is the norm! Hold on to it.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

And then there are others, such as a couple on this forum, that are so detestable than I feel the absolute need to push back on. They invite it by their rudeness, their ignorance, and their total lack of respect of other's beliefs and common sense.

A user who does not post here (much?) any more put it well for me once. That it is pointless to "push back" against those individuals if your goal is to change them or show them the error of their ways. Most of them are too far gone to be reached. Rather your goal in replying to them should be to keep them talking. Because the things they say represent their "brand" so poorly that the more they talk - the more they are doing our work for us in pushing people away from that brand or even away from religion as a whole.

I push back against them not for their benefit or mine - but for the people who benefit from seeing their vitriol represented. And every time such users do not ignore my posts - and actually reply to them - they walk happily into that trap and pretty much act like my puppet on my strings.

I think it was one of the most enlightening things that was ever said to me - as it made me question and change my motivations for interacting with such people.

Originally Posted by phetaroi

To put it simply -- they need to get out more.

Or as a writer much better than me puts it - they need to look from their navel to their window out at the real world. Scientists come up with a hypothesis and then they test it against the real world to see if it fits. These people above are bypassing that step. They find a narrative in their navel - such as atheists not having any meaning in life - that makes so much absolute sense to them that they see no reason to check the real world and see if atheists out there match it.

Navel Gazing is a good thing - but one must occasionally look up out of the navel at the real world and see if the things we find in one match the reality in the other. But for some - their own navel holds too much fascination, arrogance and hubris confirmation that the real world and actual facts are inconvenient and incidental to the unfolding narration coming from between the fluff.

[monumentus]

On the discussion of atheists finding meaning - and since I just mentioned the Reverend Coles, I think the link below is really interesting.

Derren Brown - a kind of personal hero of mine for reasons little to do with atheism - and Richard Coles get together to discuss that very topic. Meaning in life with and without god. And how they conduct themselves in that "debate" is very much representative of what I was discussing above.

But what they say on the subject is also interesting and should be informative to the likes of JeffBase who feel we lack meaning and this is somehow why we are all killing ourselves even though few of us actually are.

I quite like the ending of the discussion when the presenter asks Derren Brown if he sees the search for meaning in god as a dead end. His answer is that he does not see it as a dead end at all because god does not matter. Rather _your_ relationship with the search itself - regardless of where you are searching - does.

I think that one reply sums it up wonderfully.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I don't have the time or energy to respond to every post so it's another false assertion that I'm ignoring your post..

Jeffspeak for 'I don't have an answer.'

I've dealt with your kind long enough to know it is a waste of time to present evidence.

Jeffspeak for 'I don't have any evidence.'

Nothing you say here shows me that I'm wrong either.

If your Jesus himself told you that you were wrong you wouldn't believe him.

Originally Posted by Feral Skeptic

I was just watching the evening news and there were two stories of professional football players assaulting women, in two completely separate incidents. They showed pictures of these men, both black with dreadlocks.
Thus using the same level of ignorance as linking suicide to being atheist, then it must be true that black men with dreadlocks abuse women.

...and men with moustaches cause wars.

[Arach Angle]

Originally Posted by monumentus

On the discussion of atheists finding meaning - and since I just mentioned the Reverend Coles, I think the link below is really interesting.

Derren Brown - a kind of personal hero of mine for reasons little to do with atheism - and Richard Coles get together to discuss that very topic. Meaning in life with and without god. And how they conduct themselves in that "debate" is very much representative of what I was discussing above.

But what they say on the subject is also interesting and should be informative to the likes of JeffBase who feel we lack meaning and this is somehow why we are all killing ourselves even though few of us actually are.

I quite like the ending of the discussion when the presenter asks Derren Brown if he sees the search for meaning in god as a dead end. His answer is that he does not see it as a dead end at all because god does not matter. Rather _your_ relationship with the search itself - regardless of where you are searching - does.

I think that one reply sums it up wonderfully.

I like two things you said.

properly evaluating religion clearly points to a need for it. But it also, very clearly, points that we don't have to have it.

also, you clearly indicated both both good and bad people in Christianity.

great few post by you.