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I think most atheists see good Christians and bad Christians same as they see good atheists and bad atheists.
Religion helps some and harms others, in some cases causes great harm.
And atheists can have very meaningful lives.
Monumentus those were wonderful posts, long but woth reading.
Jeff: read Monumentus post while not thinking of your religion so that you can read what he is actually explaining to you.
It's nothing more than the typical condescending arrogant garbage that always comes from your camp. Is this really how atheists find meaning in life, by talking down to Christians and mocking us? If so, that is really sad.
It's nothing more than the typical condescending arrogant garbage that always comes from your camp. Is this really how atheists find meaning in life, by talking down to Christians and mocking us? If so, that is really sad.
If that's all you got out of Monumentus' post, THAT is what is sad.
It's nothing more than the typical condescending arrogant garbage that always comes from your camp. Is this really how atheists find meaning in life, by talking down to Christians and mocking us? If so, that is really sad.
It's nothing more than the typical condescending arrogant garbage that always comes from your camp. Is this really how atheists find meaning in life, by talking down to Christians and mocking us? If so, that is really sad.
Jeff, Monumentus spent some time and effort explaining to you several things including reasons for an increase in suicide rstes. But you are not the least bit interested in the reasons, you simply want to blame atheists for something or for anything. That you are unwilling to read the reasons provided by not only posters, but the actual article you personally linked tells me that you are not interested in a discussion, just reasons to attack us. If telling you to read a few posts without a preconceived view of what the poster might be telling you as garbage it shows that you truly care neither for a discussion nor for evidence.
It is way past the time you stopped hiding behind your religion. It is Jeff, not Christians, that makes these absurd posts, attacks atheists, thinks ever atheists is responsible for what another one ssid, and cannot conduct a civil discussion. It is Jeff and his posts that we debate and argue against. Some of the people you claim hate God and Christians are in fact Christians themselves. If you are going to make claims, assertions or insults, be brave enough to own up to them and be willing to defend your points rather than hide behind some false claim that we are mocking Christians. We do mock certain claims made by certain Christians.
Atheists have explained to you over and over and over again what gives our lives value, hope and meaning. That you will never accept it that we can have any value without your belief set is on you not us and yes it is sad that you cannot see that.
So what was the garbage I posted? That some Christians are bad or that some atheists are good?
If you truly loved everyone you would not have been the least upset on what I posted, but you don't have any love for us. You must think that atheists, gays and perhaps liberals and liberal Christians are you sworn enemies who must be attacked on all times. We respond to Jeff and what he says not your God or Christianity.
If you think reading Monumentus post, go back to the OP and read the article you linked. You will find reasons for increased suicide rates, none of them is atheism.
Yet no one asked you to respond to _every_ post did they? So the only false assertion here is your own not mine. What I was commenting on was not "every" post but the consistency in your behaviour. Which is - like it or not - so far to respond on average to about 1 in every 10 to 15 of my posts over the years. So the comment that you tend to ignore posts is the opposite of false assertion - but true and valid evaluation of the data.
Then stop throwing a hissy fit about me not giving you attention. Your posts are nothing special, just more of the same droning condescending type response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
I do not think it is that anti Christian at all. I think it is very much anti _your_ brand of Christianity. And I am glad of that because you represent a pretty toxic brand of it. And it is interesting to observe that a huge proportion of the push back you get against your views is as much from theists and other Christians as it is from atheists. That you want to spin that as "anti Christian forum" is comical therefore but it certainly is not valid.
And my brand of Christian is shared by the majority of Christians. If you think it is toxic to honor God's Word, seek to help people, show forgiveness and love even to those who have hurt us then you really have tthings backwards. In the messed up atheist world, respect has to be EARNED first, mockery, insults and personal attacks are celebrated (well as long as it is only against God's people) and you always always 100% always have to get the last word in. That's quite the toxic brew on your side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
Well "guess" would be the only useful word you wrote here because that is not at all what I said. Alas another consistent behaviour in your MO is to ignore what people actually said and make up your own more noxious version. Or - as in this case - to 100% ignore what they said and reply to something you not only made up but which does not even _remotely_ resemble the thing you are replying to.
So I will merely repeat what you just ignored which is that statistics do not even _remotely_ back up your position here. Because you are attempting to blame suicide rates over an entire and massive population on the world view of one of the smallest minorities in that population. Which is simply an agenda driven nonsense from you from start to finish.
All I'm doing is sharing the same viewpoint of the study that I posted. You, OTOH, has offered up NOTHING to support your baseless assertions. Typical. Here is more evidence to back me up:
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS:
Results suggest that religious attendance is associated with decreased suicide attempts in the general population and in those with a mental illness independent of the effects of social supports.
But of course, yes just because you use terms like "remotely" and "nonsense" then you have demolished my argument, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
I already did. You just ignored that too. Ignore being the main MO you work with over and over.
Also - The biggest fail in your approach to this topic is that you appear to want to seek simplistic 1:1 explanations for a massively complex social statistic. As if something massively complex - involving multiple and varied factors - like suicide has some simple soundbite explanation we can just type up and shove in a fortune cookie for you to swallow.
Listen, if I'm wrong. I'm wrong. I don't have an egotistical need to look like I'm "winning" here. All I ask is to produce a sound counter argument with supporting evidence. All I usually get is vague garb like yours crowing about how stupid I am or I'm just ignoring or running away. And yet, I see that in this very thread, Shirina posts that studies show prayers fails every time. Is that being a bit hypocritical? There are countless variables involved in prayer which is an individual matter yet your camp accepts any study that paints us in a negative light WITHOUT question. Something else I have NEVER once seen? An atheist criticizing another atheist in these discussions. Hey as long as you are putting us down, it's all good, apparently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
The reality outside your simplistic and agenda driven world view on the matter is that the socio-economic explanations for things like suicide are legion and diverse. There are all kinds of explanations and drivers for what causes it - what prevents it - and how we report it.
Differences in economic status is one - difference in education is another - differences in religion and lack of it is indeed another - and even differences in reporting it is another as in some countries cases of suicide are recorded and reported as something else. Especially in countries where an evaluation of suicide would effect things like the pay out of life insurance to the families.
I realize it's a complicated issue, but it's an issue that is becoming an epidemic. People in past generations also faced much more difficult times than we do now. They were born with the same brains so logically I would think their suicide rate should have been higher than ours. We live in a society now where the path to wealth has never been easier. Yet record numbers of people so hopeless that they want to die. It is simply intellectually dishonest to pretend that atheism has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
You _want_ there to be a single explanation and you _want_ it to be something to do with atheism. But outside that deep and powerful desire you have not a shred of actual data or evidence that suggests any actual causal link at all here.
I've dealt with "your kind" long enough to know that when you have no evidence to present you instantly reach for sentences like this one to pretend you do - but there is some magical reason you are withholding it. You do not _have_ the evidence to present and you are covering up that with a lie basically.
More baseless claims. I've dealt with "your kind" long enough to know that you HAVE to reject our evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
No you were laughed at - and rightly so - for having a naive and agenda driven simplistic view of society where you think a massively complex metric can be explained away with a single point of mediation. And you very much should be laughed at for clinging to such a nonsense. And you should be double laughed at for defending that world view with nothing more than the cop out of "Well I would give evidence for my position but"
Rightfully so? Mockery is nothing more than a crutch and poisons any hope for a respectful productive conversation. Besides you don't even know what evidence I was referencing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
More of your navel gazing without matching it to reality. The real reality however is that atheists have generally no issue at all with finding meaning and hope in life. Especially the atheists on this forum who have lined up time and time again to explain and cherish their sources of meaning and value in life. It is you fooling yourself by consistently ignoring _all_ of that - and inventing a narrative of what and how atheists thing of your own invention that in no way matches any of what you ignored.
There is no meaning to life or hope with athiesm. Love is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your world. If I believed everything I read in these discussions, I would believe that all atheists have wonderful perfect life and never struggle with anything. Baloney.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus
I talk to such people all the time and the things I tell them are tailored to their specific character and situation and context. Because there are many such things that one can say in such situations. What I do not do - and I see neither benefit nor merit in doing - is to tell them lies or things I have absolutely no evidence for.
I myself have lost people near and dear to me too. And some of the meaning and value I find in my life is to cherish and honour their memory by taking the best of them and incorporating it into the best of me. Continuing on their legacy and cherishing and perpetuating their memory is one of the sources of meaning in my life. Much more so than merely pretending they are still alive and smiling down from magical la-la land at me somewhere in order to delude myself out of grief by ignoring it.
And what is the point of cherishing and honoring their memory? Eventually you will cease to exist as well and along goes your honored memory of them too. There is no purpose in it.
If you want me to get something out of a post, maybe they should try and not start off commenting about how stupid I am.
I went back to Momentus posts and did not see where he as sussed you of being stupid.
In regard to the Dalhousie study you linked: there was no significant difference in suicide rates between religious and non religious. There was between religious who attended services and non religious. The conclusion suggests that there was a difference between attendance and non belief. From this study one would have to test between religious attendance and non believers attendance of non religious support or community attendance. This study is the first one you linked thst in any way suggested what your OP asserts. And if you read it is only attendance not belief that has a significant difference. It makes sense that church attendance would decrease suicide rates, just from the social aspect itself.
Two years ago my mother moved from an apartment building to a seniors facility. She went from having a few friends which she did several things a week with to a place where it was designed for socializing. She now has more friends and is seldom in her own apartment except after 7:30 pm. Even just talking to her she sounds so much happier, more alive and interesting and younger as well. That is the value of being in a social setting and no doubt churches offer the same. Having said that I know people who are not believers who attend church regularly and believers who do not attend any church. The non believers attending would fall into the reduced group and the non attending believer would not.
This study is the type of evidence we have asked for. Unfortunately for you it only partly supports your assertion.
Not just that, but Protestantism causes higher rates of suicide than Catholicism does. Even according to not the hundred years old studies that had shown this already, but by studies that I liked to which published as recently as 2012. There might be even newer ones.
I mean, why should any of us look beyond that as it feels to us? Anything further from our preconceived notions is just garbage details that might derail us from our militant fronts.
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I mean, why should any of us look beyond that as it feels to us? Anything further from our preconceived notions is just garbage details that might derail us from our militant fronts.
