Suicide Rate Now Highest in 50 Years, Way to Go, Atheists!! (agnostic, Muslims)

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Spontaneous remission.

That is just fancy doctor-talk for "Gee, I don't really know how he got better so quickly!"

So why do Christians feel they KNOW the answer, just as they thought they KNEW that the sun was the center of the universe?

How many times do we have to prove these supernatural events wrong with science before believers stop touching the hot stove again and again and again. Yes, the stove is still hot and it will still burn.

Because like with the origin of life, the Big Bang, and spontaneous remission, science WILL figure it out eventually.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Physical healings through prayer are not uncommon, but they don't get much press, especially in circles that atheists frequent.

Let's face it - in a country like this one so irrationally steeped in religious superstition, who DOESN'T get prayed for? You'd practically have to be a homeless person with no family or friends dying alone in an alley to not get at least a few prayers from someone if you're sick or dying. Right? Which means you can't prove prayer had anything to do with it if everyone receives prayer. Plus, I'm betting that someone you know has died despite being smothered in prayers. How do you explain that?

Prayer has been scientifically proven to be ineffective in regards to who recovers from illnesses and who do not. Sure, spontaneous remission "through prayer" might seem common - but that's only because you're remembering every time it seems to work. But what you *don't* remember are the thousands of people who die in a hospital and at home every day because their prayers - and those of their loved ones - didn't work. Only the most self-indulgent people would ever believe that the Almighty Creator of the Universe saw themselves or their loved ones as so important that God had to personally intercede to keep those people alive.

So what do you think the ratio REALLY is for those who are "miraculously" healed? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? One in a hundred thousand? That's not at all "common" as you put it and are actually worse odds than many casino games offer.

And how many of them were REALLY miraculous? How many of those people would have gotten better anyway with or without prayer?

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Recently, I read Dodie Osteen's book ("Healed of Cancer") and it's a remarkable account of her complete and permanent healing of Stage IV cancer. After being hospitalized for weeks, she was sent home to die in 1981, and spent six weeks focusing on nothing but the Bible's promises of healing and restoration.

And how many people, do you think, bought that book and did the same thing Dodie did - and died anyway? Oh, but see, you only ever hear about the success stories. The failures, of which there are many, many, many more, are swept under the rug.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

The multiple tumors throughout Dodie's body dissolved, the cancer disappeared and she is now 85 years old and in excellent health.

This doesn't even say anything good about God. It says that he plays favorites - and that MOST of us are just here as backdrop fodder - like extras in a movie whose lives don't matter at all in his eyes. Only the truly important people will get a miracle. Everyone else? Die. Die early, die old, doesn't matter. Die. Kids, infants, people who never got the chance to live - unimportant! But Dodie, now there's someone who needs saving! What makes her better, than, say, one of my best friends in high school who died of throat cancer when he was just 22? Why didn't Keith get to live to 85? Hmm?

This is why even this concept of miracle healing is disgusting and onerous - because of what it implies rather than what is actually said.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

That's one account and there are many, but Dodie's is well-documented.

And you never get to hear about all the failures. Why? Because they're DEAD! They don't get to write a book about how prayer failed them, now, do they.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

As a tiny infant, I was hospitalized and after all medical hope was exhausted, my mother was shoved out of the hospital room, as I was in the "active dying phase" (multiple organ failure). She went home and summoned a church friend to pray with her through a very long night. I was restored to life through prayer.

Bull.

You got lucky. PERIOD.

Oh, I know you want to think of yourself as somehow blessed of a god - that his magical hands brought you back to life. Because YOU have a purpose in this world, and God needed you alive to fulfill it - or some other such drek.

But again, what of my friend? Oh I guess he didn't pray hard enough? Didn't have enough people praying for him? Just wasn't quite right with God?

There has to be a REASON why so many others die whilst you lived, right? Can you explain that reason? No, no never mind. I know what you'll say. "I don't know what the reason is ..." Because to say anything more than that would be arrogant, conceited, and an admission that you think you're more important than all of those others.

But - if your answer is "I don't know," then you just admitted, albeit unwittingly, that you really have no idea that it was the prayer that made you better! That's right. I'll leave you to puzzle out why that is.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Yes, these are anecdotes, but if spiritual healing is based on spiritual laws (which supersede human understanding), then a single healing demonstrated by spiritual laws means that it's something that is accessible to all.

Except it's never been demonstrated that spiritual healing - which is just a euphemism for "prayer" so I don't know why you're even calling it "spiritual healing" - even works.

Now, there is something to be said for state of mind when trying to heal from an illness or accident, that can be proven empirically. But as I said at the beginning of this post, the only honest answer to why spontaneous remission occurs is: "I don't know." You don't get to take credit for something that isn't even remotely proven to be anything more than random chance.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Atheists probably don't hear a lot of those stories. That's the beauty part of being a "believer." We have hope, and that is a beautiful thing.

I only WISH I didn't hear a lot of these stories.

Instead, I've heard truckloads of them. And it only goes to show me just how dishonest people can be when coming up with reasons for why things happen.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Y'all should get out more. Visit a church from time to time. You might hear some of these powerful stories. It sure beats thinking that everything is so hopeless and grim!

Is THAT what you think we do all day? Sit around thinking about the hopelessness and grimness of the world? SERIOUSLY?

Maybe it's YOU who needs to get out more, talk to more atheists, find out what we believe, what we're all about, and what we think.

I am SICK of it, listening to believers tell ME what I think, HOW I think, and what I believe. We can do that to Christians because there is a set of beliefs one must hold to BE a Christian. But you can't do that with atheists because the only belief we need to have is to believe there are no gods. After that one commonality, we are as diverse as any 100 random people you'll meet on the street.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I would imagine an atheist living with chronic pain might consider suicide. What's the point of going on, suffering to become worm food on a future day? Christians have the hope of physical healing and eternal pain free life.

Anyone can be miraculously healed.

Do you think it only happens to Christians? Are you really that smug and arrogant in your beliefs?

Not to mention that I, as an atheist in chronic pain, can hope just as much as you can that there is an afterlife.

The only difference is that the afterlife I get to hope for doesn't involve groveling at a god's feet all day for an eternity, mewling praises and singing hymns with a voice that will never grow hoarse with the repetition. I can hope for a natural evolution to the human spirit that will put us ALL in a higher place - not just those who joined your special little clique who believe in a specific god. One god out of the thousands ever worshiped and the thousands still to come. And yet we were all supposed to know without question, instinctively, which god was the real one.

Imagine putting one real piece of candy in a jar with thousands of fake pieces - whatddya think the odds are of picking the only real piece in the jar? Thanks to your god's game of peek-a-boo, the vast majority of people who ever lived will be roasted in a torture furnace with all of the blame resting on his shoulders. And we're supposed to worship him for it.

Right

[L8Gr8Apost8]

Originally Posted by Shirina

That is just fancy doctor-talk for "Gee, I don't really know how he got better so quickly!"

So why do Christians feel they KNOW the answer, just as they thought they KNEW that the sun was the center of the universe?

How many times do we have to prove these supernatural events wrong with science before believers stop touching the hot stove again and again and again. Yes, the stove is still hot and it will still burn.

Because like with the origin of life, the Big Bang, and spontaneous remission, science WILL figure it out eventually.



Let's face it - in a country like this one so irrationally steeped in religious superstition, who DOESN'T get prayed for? You'd practically have to be a homeless person with no family or friends dying alone in an alley to not get at least a few prayers from someone if you're sick or dying. Right? Which means you can't prove prayer had anything to do with it if everyone receives prayer. Plus, I'm betting that someone you know has died despite being smothered in prayers. How do you explain that?

Prayer has been scientifically proven to be ineffective in regards to who recovers from illnesses and who do not. Sure, spontaneous remission "through prayer" might seem common - but that's only because you're remembering every time it seems to work. But what you *don't* remember are the thousands of people who die in a hospital and at home every day because their prayers - and those of their loved ones - didn't work. Only the most self-indulgent people would ever believe that the Almighty Creator of the Universe saw themselves or their loved ones as so important that God had to personally intercede to keep those people alive.

So what do you think the ratio REALLY is for those who are "miraculously" healed? One in a thousand? One in ten thousand? One in a hundred thousand? That's not at all "common" as you put it and are actually worse odds than many casino games offer.

And how many of them were REALLY miraculous? How many of those people would have gotten better anyway with or without prayer?



And how many people, do you think, bought that book and did the same thing Dodie did - and died anyway? Oh, but see, you only ever hear about the success stories. The failures, of which there are many, many, many more, are swept under the rug.



This doesn't even say anything good about God. It says that he plays favorites - and that MOST of us are just here as backdrop fodder - like extras in a movie whose lives don't matter at all in his eyes. Only the truly important people will get a miracle. Everyone else? Die. Die early, die old, doesn't matter. Die. Kids, infants, people who never got the chance to live - unimportant! But Dodie, now there's someone who needs saving! What makes her better, than, say, one of my best friends in high school who died of throat cancer when he was just 22? Why didn't Keith get to live to 85? Hmm?

This is why even this concept of miracle healing is disgusting and onerous - because of what it implies rather than what is actually said.


And you never get to hear about all the failures. Why? Because they're DEAD! They don't get to write a book about how prayer failed them, now, do they.



Bull.

You got lucky. PERIOD.

Oh, I know you want to think of yourself as somehow blessed of a god - that his magical hands brought you back to life. Because YOU have a purpose in this world, and God needed you alive to fulfill it - or some other such drek.

But again, what of my friend? Oh I guess he didn't pray hard enough? Didn't have enough people praying for him? Just wasn't quite right with God?

There has to be a REASON why so many others die whilst you lived, right? Can you explain that reason? No, no never mind. I know what you'll say. "I don't know what the reason is ..." Because to say anything more than that would be arrogant, conceited, and an admission that you think you're more important than all of those others.

But - if your answer is "I don't know," then you just admitted, albeit unwittingly, that you really have no idea that it was the prayer that made you better! That's right. I'll leave you to puzzle out why that is.



Except it's never been demonstrated that spiritual healing - which is just a euphemism for "prayer" so I don't know why you're even calling it "spiritual healing" - even works.

Now, there is something to be said for state of mind when trying to heal from an illness or accident, that can be proven empirically. But as I said at the beginning of this post, the only honest answer to why spontaneous remission occurs is: "I don't know." You don't get to take credit for something that isn't even remotely proven to be anything more than random chance.



I only WISH I didn't hear a lot of these stories.

Instead, I've heard truckloads of them. And it only goes to show me just how dishonest people can be when coming up with reasons for why things happen.



Is THAT what you think we do all day? Sit around thinking about the hopelessness and grimness of the world? SERIOUSLY?

Maybe it's YOU who needs to get out more, talk to more atheists, find out what we believe, what we're all about, and what we think.

I am SICK of it, listening to believers tell ME what I think, HOW I think, and what I believe. We can do that to Christians because there is a set of beliefs one must hold to BE a Christian. But you can't do that with atheists because the only belief we need to have is to believe there are no gods. After that one commonality, we are as diverse as any 100 random people you'll meet on the street.

Why me? was the question that got me looking when I had my experiences. Mine weren't really all that unusual as far as these things go and fit perfectly when I read some skeptical explanations.

It didn't feel personal though like "here ya go, have some healing". It was more like I just hit on it doing it's thing. Like messing around with rabbit ears on an old TV and suddenly being able to see through the static. It's there, pick it up or don't...no right, no wrong.

[eddie gein]

[quote=Shirina;53811078]

So why do Christians feel they KNOW the answer, just as they thought they KNEW that the sun was the center of the universe?

Only heathens and heretics thought the sun was the center of the universe. Good Christians knew the earth was.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Nope, I only speak the truth. In EVERY thread I participated, I had to be the mature one to walk away first, most recently the homosexuality thread. I walked away while your side continue to talk trash. Atheists always get the last word in.

LOL!

Ahaha!

I find it hysterical that you began a paragraph with, "Nope, I only speak the truth," and then immediately followed it up with one of the biggist whoppers of a lie I've seen you post in a very long time.

Seriously, man, you need to stop. Because I'm never very far away - and I will call you out for this kind of charlatanism.

You have no right to claim some kind of moral high ground - and if your most recent "walk away" was from a thread on homosexuality, I can only imagine why people attacked you personally.

And why not? There's no doubt in my mind that you attacked homosexuals on a personal level. Don't bother denying it because I won't believe it anyway.

Not to mention how I've walked away first from most of our discussions - especially recently.

But if I've walked away first from even ONE -- just ONE -- thread in which you participated, you've been proven to be a liar.

And that's to say nothing of the many others who post here. Because all it takes is for one person to have walked away first from just one thread where you participated, you're a liar.

But I don't even have to nitpick with somantics that much to show how your moral arragance is writing checks your words can't cash.

[The Last Amalekite 1Sam15]

^^^^ can't rep ya again Shirina

<<<< thats you jeffbase

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If you want me to get something out of a post, maybe they should try and not start off commenting about how stupid I am.

But it's okay to start your posts with:

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Then stop throwing a hissy fit about me not giving you attention. Your posts are nothing special, just more of the same droning condescending type response.

Right, Jeff? Are you immune to the same rules you lay down for everyone else?

Oh, right, of course you are. You're a fundevangelist after all, and for fundevangelists, there are no rules for themselves but a Bible full of rules for everyone else.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And my brand of Christian is shared by the majority of Christians.

No, actually, it isn't. You're just like the rabidly right conservative Republicans who believe the majority of Americans are just like them - even though every poll ever done on this topic shows that no more than 32% are like them.

Or how the anti-gay crowd continued thinking that less than 10% of Americans were for same-sex marriage when, in fact, 52% of Americans were for same-sex marriage, and that number was growing at 2% every year.

And here you are, poor Jeff, suffering with that same delusion that your beliefs are the majority beliefs - like so many minority groups before them. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Will the cycle of delusion ever end?

Oh, and I know what you're doing. You're taking your brand of Christianity, which represents 25% of Christians in America, and counting all of the other types individually - with Catholics at 20%, Mainline Protestant at 14%, Black Protestant at 6.5 %, etc. etc.

But, see, the problem is that all of those other groups are also Christian, and if you add them up, they outnumber you 2 to 1. Which means, of course, that your type of Christianity is NOT the majority.

I want to believe that you didn't skew the statistics on purpose - but I'm just not sure that I can. Your group might be the largest single group, but you are NOT the majority. See how that works?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If you think it is toxic to honor God's Word, seek to help people, show forgiveness and love even to those who have hurt us then you really have tthings backwards.

Yes, actually, I do think it is toxic to honor God's word. Because that means believing in all sorts of heinous things like persecuting gays, subjugating women, killing everyone who isn't a Christian, murdering rebellious children, and the list goes on and on.

And don't for one minute sit there and give me a lecture about how that's all Old Testament - because I've heard far too many windbags who share the same pews as you do advocating for a literal Nazi-like holocaust against homosexuals simply because it says we should kill gays in Deuteronomy.

This is why I would fight to the death to keep the likes of you from our government. Your particular religious belief, while vaneered in love and forgiveness, would really just be tyrany at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

In the messed up atheist world, respect has to be EARNED first, mockery, insults and personal attacks are celebrated (well as long as it is only against God's people) and you always always 100% always have to get the last word in. That's quite the toxic brew on your side.

I have endured countless racial slurs. I have been threatened with rape. I have been ridiculed in more ways than your pristine mind could ever comprehend. I've been threatened with death. That's to say nothing of name-calling.

And each and every one of them came from a self-identified Christian.

So I don't want to hear one word about how "messed up" the world of atheism is. Aside from basic respect, why shouldn't respect be earned? It's not my fault if you haven't earned the respect of many people on this forum - only because your religious views are harsh, draconic, and do not sit well wih the *ahem* majority of people.

And yet I do respect you for at least one thing - you at least try to fight the good fight for your cause. You're not afraid to get in my face and engage me in a debate. And I like that. Respect that. Which is far better than the new batch of Christian milquetoasts that have entered the fray. Their idea is to slap that report button again and again to get our posts deleted, edited, or even the author banned. Because they can't do what you do. And believe me, I've said as much several times in my posts.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

All I'm doing is sharing the same viewpoint of the study that I posted. You, OTOH, has offered up NOTHING to support your baseless assertions. Typical. Here is more evidence to back me up:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18799219

That's not "all" you're doing. The following was taken straight from your evidence:

but the association between religion, spirituality and suicidal behaviors in people with mental illness are understudied. Few studies have examined the influence of social supports in these relationships.

What you're doing is presenting this "evidence" as conclusive proof when the evidence itself says that it isn't.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Listen, if I'm wrong. I'm wrong. I don't have an egotistical need to look like I'm "winning" here.

Yes you do. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying so hard.

Do I want to win my arguments? Of course I do. And I, at least, can admit it.

Do you think debaters want to lose?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

All I ask is to produce a sound counter argument with supporting evidence.

Except it's not sound. And it never was.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

All I usually get is vague garb like yours crowing about how stupid I am or I'm just ignoring or running away.

You never answer direct questions or even make the effort. Not unless they're softball questions.

And you make such an issue about personal attacks that most of your rebuttals end up being about that, exclusively, giving you a convenient excuse to not have to make counter arguments or answer direct questions.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And yet, I see that in this very thread, Shirina posts that studies show prayers fails every time. Is that being a bit hypocritical?

Please explain to me how I've been hypocritical. (Watch, everyone, how he'll never explain it.)

And what the ...? I never said prayer fails every single time. What I'm saying is that, when it *appears* to work, there is no evidence at all that the prayer had anything to do with a person's recovery. That's why, in the studies carried out where some patients were prayed for and others were not, the recovery rate was roughly equal for both. In fact, those who were prayed for and *knew* it had the worst recovery rate of all, which seems to suggest it is a person's mental state, not the prayer, that has the strongest influence.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

There are countless variables involved in prayer which is an individual matter yet your camp accepts any study that paints us in a negative light WITHOUT question.

LOL! There are no variables in prayer. It either works or it doesn't. That's all that needs to be demonstrated.

And yet, it is still a pretty big coincidence that all of these supposed "variables" seems to whittle down the prayer success rate to that of chance - which still means it doesn't work.

I'll be waiting for that explanation of how I'm being a hypocrite. Might as well toss up a list of variables regarding prayer, too, while you're at it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Something else I have NEVER once seen? An atheist criticizing another atheist in these discussions. Hey as long as you are putting us down, it's all good, apparently.

This is just stupid. As if that has anything whatsoever to do with any truth claims made by believers.

Are you expecting a cavalry charge by pro-religion atheists to come and rescue you? Because it'll be a long wait.

We don't have a reason to attack each other. And while I know you've long hated atheist solidarity on this forum, get used to it. You should be used to it already. Because, as I've said, your views on religion are entirely too harsh and mean-spirited for even some Christians to stomach.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I realize it's a complicated issue, but it's an issue that is becoming an epidemic. People in past generations also faced much more difficult times than we do now. They were born with the same brains so logically I would think their suicide rate should have been higher than ours.

Wrong.

Because what you're doing here is assuming that people in the past knew how much better life was going to be in the future. Absolutely, if I were someone holed up in my home in downtown London waiting the plague to strike - realizing that in 700 years, the plague wouldn't even exist, and what few outbreaks there are can be easily treated, I might give up hope too.

But all they knew was what they had - and so they kept pressing onward. They had to make the most of the cards they were dealt. Perhaps, in another 700 years, people will look at our time and write about how tough we had it. Although thanks to climate change denial - in part due to fundamentalist Christianity - in another 700 years, they'll look back at our time and marvel at our ciivlization and the wonders it contained. Assuming anyone studies history after everything collapses.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

We live in a society now where the path to wealth has never been easier. Yet record numbers of people so hopeless that they want to die.

That's just false. If anything, the path to wealth is far more difficult than ever before. I could go on at length about that and the reasons for it - but even the Wall Street Journal has featured several articles about how upward mobility in America is largely a myth. If you were born poor, you're gonna stay poor. That's how it is. This parable idea of people starting with nothing and building a financial empire is largely a product of American propaganda. A few people have done it, sure, but only a few.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

It is simply intellectually dishonest to pretend that atheism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

What's intellectually dishonest is assuming atheism has anything to do with it without more conclusive evidence than a handful of studies which, themselves, say aren't conclusive.

At least when I posted studies showing how religious societies have higher crime rates and other tidbits like that, I'm honest enough to say that there is a correlation not necessarily a causation. Whereas you keep putting forth this idea that atheism all by itself is responsible for most suicides.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

More baseless claims. I've dealt with "your kind" long enough to know that you HAVE to reject our evidence.

Now THIS is an example of hypocrisy. If you would like me to explain how, I will be more than happy to. All you need do is ask.

It's also hypocritical to call me a hypocrite while being one yourself. I just thought I'd throw that out there for you to gnaw upon.

Thanks for playing.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Rightfully so? Mockery is nothing more than a crutch and poisons any hope for a respectful productive conversation. Besides you don't even know what evidence I was referencing.

Actually, mockery quite often has a legitimate point buried within it. Unfortunately many believers such as yourself can't get past the actual mocking to see what that point actually is.

Besides, mocking is sometimes just good ol' fashioned fun. Not going to deny it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

There is no meaning to life or hope with athiesm.

Utter garbage. Pure rubbish. Disgusting anti-atheist propaganda.

You see, we give ourselves our own meaning to our lives. Which is a lot better than having our meaning and purpose handed to us by some celestial dictator who doesn't even take our suggestions under advisement much less our wants and desires. "Nope, you're life is going be like this and I don't give a damn what YOU want. I'm God!"

I remember being in grade school and occasionally being assigned a report to write. The best kind were the ones where we could choose our own topic - even if the topic had to fit within the subject being taught. I was far more motivated to research and write about a topic I was interested in than I was for a topic I was assigned - namely because it was pretty rare that an assigned topic just coincidentally lined up with a personal interest.

The same can be said about an assigned purpose vs. a chosen purpose. Why would you even WANT to have your purpose assigned to you? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

And what IS your purpose in life? To be a slave to your deity? To put so much emphasis on the next life that you forget to live this one? To cackle with glee as everyone who ever disagreed with you is tortured for all eternity? To keep everyone else in ignorance so they will more easily fall victim to religious propaganda?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Love is nothing more than a chemical reaction in your world.

And here is a representation of why your side is so often shamefully bankrupt in the morals department.

You care more about the cause than the results. And if the cause isn't what you want, then results be damned!

Because WHO CARES if love is a chemical reaction. Is it still not love?

Please, Mr. Brain Chemistry Expert, explain to me the difference between the love of an atheist and the love of a Christian.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If I believed everything I read in these discussions, I would believe that all atheists have wonderful perfect life and never struggle with anything. Baloney.

Can you be honest, Jeff, just once? I know you claim to be honest, but you're not.

Because I have been more than open with many of the adversities I face in my day to day life - I doubt anyone here who knows me at all or read my posts would ever claim to want to trade places with me. I struggle every damn day, Jeff - with depression, with pain, with loneliness, all of it.

And guess what - I still have no need or desire to go running to the nearest church to convert. I am THAT confident that religion is bunk and won't give my life meaning or puprose - nor will it make it any easier.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And what is the point of cherishing and honoring their memory? Eventually you will cease to exist as well and along goes your honored memory of them too. There is no purpose in it.

Just when I thought your assertions couldn't get any worse, you manage to outdo yourself.

After spending the last two paragraphs regaling the idea of having purpose and meaning, you manage to trash your own argument by posting the above quote. LOL!

By your logic, what's the point of doing anything that won't last forever? I mean, how can one derive ANY enjoyment from a book unless it has an infinite number of pages or a movie that isn't an infinite number of hours long. Why bother loving anyone who isn't a Christian because they won't be there in Heaven with you ergo your relationship with them won't last for eternity. Why eat a meal that doesn't have infinite portions or take a vacation that isn't infinitely long?

In fact, the fact that our memories AREN'T infinite makes appreciating them while we have them all the MORE meaningful.

It's a bit like how summer vacation always worked for me. Granted, summer vacations aren't infinite, but they seemed like a really long time when you're that young and time meandered past at a snail's pace. There were always a couple dozen things I wanted to accomplish before school started again - but it was hard to do any of those things because of how easy it was to push it back to tomorrow - and then the next day - and the next day.

Time had no meaning to me because I had so much of it - but when I saw those first "Back to School" sales advertizing on television, I was hit with shock and panick. OMG! I only have a couple weeks left of vacation and I've done next to nothing!

You can bet those two weeks were busy - because now time meant something since it became suddenly very rare.

So when you sit there and talk about how infinities and eternities gives life, memories, relationships, emotions, and all the rest of it their value - think again. It does precisely the opposite. Who cares how we treat each other in this life when we have an infinite amount of time to make amends, right?

Plus, pain and suffering is only temporary - whereas bliss in Heaven is infinite - so do we really need to help people who are suffering? Nah! It will all end when they die anyway, so why waste our time and money? People really do rationalize in this way - usually in conjunction wih, "so why should I have to pay for someone else's health care?" Not that they don't already when they pay their premiums, but then again, I've never accused people like that of being at all intelligent.

*sigh* So yet again, here I am at the end of another long post where none of your arguments have stood up against me. I mean, forgive my conceit in saying so, but ... it's like nothing changes. Not even a little. You just keep posting the same anti-atheist tripe over and over despite what we keep telling you.

And now my hands hurt so bad I'm about in tears - and what did I accomplish, really? You're going to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe it. Nothing we say matters.

[LuminousTruth]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The placebo effect shouldn't even be a reality if atheism is true. I shouldn't be able to cause physical healing by having faith or willing something positive to happen.

Atheism is irrelevant. And no, the placebo effect, like Karma, would have really nothing to do with Theism or Atheism, ultimately.

The body is involved in causing "physical healing" all on its own without any conscious input. That unconscious and conscious processes work in the placebo effect do not point to it being supernatural. The placebo effect was found because a military doctor ran out of morphine and started giving his injured and suffering patients plain IV fluids and a statistically significant number of them reported feeling as if they were given morphine. It has later been tested and retested with other substances and practices, even to the point that there still remains a significant effect (although I'm sure lessened) when patients are told they are merely taking a placebo and what a placebo is and should do (nothing much physio-chemically of itself, like sugar pills and water-based homeopathic remedies).

[RosemaryT]

Originally Posted by Shirina

And now my hands hurt so bad I'm about in tears - and what did I accomplish, really? You're going to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe it. Nothing we say matters.

You're right about that.

You're not going to talk Christians out of their beliefs using words, because (speaking for myself), I have experienced something that transcends all human opinions. I shan't be talked out of it by anyone.

I do have a question for you. Are you happy?

It'd be interesting to see the "happiness quotient" for atheists vs. believers.

[mensaguy]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

You're right about that.

You're not going to talk Christians out of their beliefs using words, because (speaking for myself), I have experienced something that transcends all human opinions. I shan't be talked out of it by anyone.

I do have a question for you. Are you happy?

It'd be interesting to see the "happiness quotient" for atheists vs. believers.

I would think it would be difficult to be happy when you're in constant pain. Pain bad enough for a person to be disabled and unable to work. Pain bad enough to require daily medication. That would could a lot of happiness.