Suicide Rate Now Highest in 50 Years, Way to Go, Atheists!! (Satan, belief)

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

You're right about that.

How sad.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

You're not going to talk Christians out of their beliefs using words, because (speaking for myself), I have experienced something that transcends all human opinions. I shan't be talked out of it by anyone.

Yeah, sure.

My father said the same thing - and started going on and on about how it was Jesus.

I asked him,"But how do you know it was Jesus?"

And he replied with: "Well, who else could it have been?"

Wow, two fallacies in the same sentence - the false dilemma fallacy and the argument from ignorance fallacy.

While I don't doubt that you had an "experience," a rational person would admit that they really don't know what it was or what caused it. However, far too many are irrational and assume that any little brain fart is a divine epiphany.

And the brain is a funny, easily deceived organ. But don't let that stop you from believing in the unsubstantiated with all your heart.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

I do have a question for you. Are you happy?

Don't ask me if I'm happy. I'm not a "typical" atheist meaning I would be a statistical outlier regardless of what my beliefs were.

I can guarantee this, however - religion isn't going to change anything. Because I can have the same hopes as any believer. Better ones, in fact. While simultaneously keeping my beliefs in the realm of reality.

And I don't have to deal with ancient books, horrible morals, and I am free to put my family, friends, and fellow human beings FIRST and foremost in my life - not some despicable Bronze Age god with ego problems.

Granted, i don't know precisely what you believe - but considering you took Odie Olsteen at her word without so much as an eyelash-bat with all of her Biblical mambo-jahambo, I'm guessing you're Christian.

Sorry, but once you know what I know about Christianity and see it for what it is, there's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

The ONLY thing that might change is having a much larger support network among church congregants. But I don't have to buy into the dogma and the mysticism to have that - I could march myself to the nearest church and get that without believing a word they say about god.

Besides, if I asked for help from any of them, most of them would probably pray for me and tell me to read some Bible passages rather than give me the help I really need - which is tangible and actually requires effort and real caring on the part of the other person.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

It'd be interesting to see the "happiness quotient" for atheists vs. believers.

Alright, then .... let's get into this a little, shall we?

I remember reading in college a peer reviewed study involving two groups of students - one group having been diagnosed with depression while the other group was free of any diagnosed mental illnesses.

Each group was asked to play a game similar to that old electronic game from the late 70s early 80s called Simon. In case you don't know the game, it works like this: There are four colors, usually red, blue, green, and yellow. Each color lights up and plays a musical note unique to that color.

The object of the game is to repeat the pattern of lights and notes for as long as you can until you make a mistake - somewhat similar to Simon Says. If red, blue, and green light up, then you press red, blue and green. Every "round" adds an extra light and tone so the next one would be red, blue, green, and red. The one after that would be red, blue, green, red, and yellow. And so on until the pattern becomes so long you eventually mess it up.

SO....

The caveat to this experiment was that the game was rigged so that no matter how long you could keep going, the game would eventually buzz you as being incorrect - even if you WERE correct.

The normal people with no diagnosed mental illnesses kept playing - even when they grew frustrated. They held on to this belief that, if they could play just one more time, they could beat it. Oh, they were so close to winning! Yeah, they kept to their old fashioned "can do!" attitude, that nothing was impossible, and all it took was a bit of tenacity and perseverence to eventually win the game. Don't give up!

The depressed people - almost down to the very last one - figured out the game was rigged within two or three attempts. They knew what button to push and it was incorrect anyway. The majority of them quit before their 5th attempt and told the doctors that either a) the game was rigged or b) the game was broken so there was no reason to keep playing it.

Bottom line is that, thanks to studies like this one (there have been many), depressed people tend to have a greater grasp of reality that their normal counterparts - which is part of what makes them depressed. Happiness is, in most respects, the art of self-delusion. To be able to really and truly believe that "everything will be okay" and "it will all work out" and for many, "God is real and he is looking out for us."

And you have to believe in those things no matter how unlikely, no matter how ridiculous, no matter how impossible the prospect.

Depressed people see the world, quite often, for what it really is. There is no fluff in our lives, no smoke and mirrors that distract us from the reality that is - whether good or bad. Unfortunately, in this world, it is quite often bad.

So even IF there was scientific proof that atheists are less happy than believers, there is still a very important question to resolve:

Does atheism itself cause unhappiness and depression? Or are unhappy or depressed people simply more readily drawn to atheism because they see reality a bit more clearly than normal folks?

I know what you want to believe already - that atheism itself causes unhappiness. But that's the least likely of the two since there are many many perfectly happy atheists. Why aren't they miserable, unhappy, and suffering from depression?

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Perhaps that's why it's especially puzzling to me that anyone would want to diminish another soul's hope and comfort in a Supreme Being.

Because another soul's hope and comfort in a Supreme Being is rapidly becoming a mandate for every person in America.

If people kept their beliefs to a personal, individual choice, you probably wouldn't hear a peep from 99.9% of the non-believers out there - including me.

But that's not the way it is. Too many Christians want everyone to be a Christian - just like ISIS and Al-Qaeda want everyone to be a Muslim.

Whether or not you, personally, are a part of this movement really makes no difference to me, because if you're not against the fundevantelist crowd, you're against me by default - because doing nothing is the same thing as taking their side.

I'm an immigrant to the USA - so maybe I value my individual freedoms a bit more than the average American who quite often take them for granted - and I really do not want to see this country turn into a theocratic-fascist state. And that is precisely where we are heading right now.

Is diminishing another soul's hope and comfort worth saving the very principles of democracy, freedom, liberty, and equality?

I don't know. What do you think?

Yes, I do understand that it's difficult for a lot of people to see - which is why they're getting away with it. But due to my disability and lack of much social interaction, I have 18 hours per day to do nothing but read and research - which I do quite often. And you don't even want to know what's going on. No, these aren't conspiracy theories from some fringy left-wing atheist crazy site, either.

Every source I've drawn upon has been vetted as respectable politicians, authors, historians, journalists, and even some theologians. We are on very dangerous ground right now.

If Christians weren't constantly trying to undermine scientific advancement with garbage like Young Earth Creationism or trying to brainwash kids in a captive environment (i.e. school) into Christianity or denying climate change because "who cares anyway because Jaysus(!) is coming!" and otherwise making America the laughing stock of the world because our schools refuse to teach critical thinking and higher order thinking skills for the express reason of making kids more vulnerable to fundamentalist and extremist religious views; if these Christians weren't out there trying to ban books like Harry Potter and attacking public libraries with Sharpie markers to censor nudity in classical art or to scribble over any sentence with profanity in it; if they weren't having book burnings like neo-Nazis and wanting to be everyone's mommy and daddy there to tell us what we can read, watch, hear, eat, what to wear, what hairstyles to have, and basically trying to rule every aspect of your life ...

If these Christians weren't running around the world as missionaries destroying indiginous cultures and carelessly running roughshod over traditions thousands of years older than their own; if these Christians weren't in central Africa preaching about the evils of condoms in the most AIDs-ridden place on earth; if those same Christians weren't back here in the USA preaching "abstinance only" when every study ever done shows that "abstinance only" doesn't work; when those same Christians will deny a woman's right to control her own uterus and force her to give birth to an unwanted child while simultaneously voting for politicians who want to strip away every single government program that would help this new mother take care of that baby she never wanted; as long as Christians scream about gay marriage and transgenders as if these were the two biggest social issues of the modern era - even to the point where governors are sacrificing the economy of their state just to keep transgenders in their biological bathroom; when I have to watch Christians marching side-by-side with swastika-carrying neo-Nazis; when these same Christians go ape over responsible gun control legislation because the right to own a gun is more important than the very lives of their children.

If Christians weren't always trying to sneak Creationism into public school science curriculums; if Christian fanatics like Rev. Kevin Swanson are advocating a wholesale slaughter of homosexuals because it says to murder them in Deuteronomy...

If Christians weren't doing all of these things and more - much more, I wouldn't care what you or anyone else believed.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8

I didn't see that coming.

Chapman: *I* don't know - Mr Wentworth just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at the mill, that's all - I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]
[The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[Texan2008]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

So then tell me: what is the benefit of being a Christian--I mean other than the benefit of this vague promise you accept solely on blind faith that you'll go to heaven when you die? I mean you Christians pray for healing for your loved ones and your loved ones die at the same rate as non-Christians. You pay 10% of your hard-earned cash to corrupt churchmen who live high on the hog at your expense while you get thrown out on the street because you lose your job and then cannot afford food for your family. Jesus doesn't ride to your rescue to drop manna out of the sky so your family won't starve. Jesus essentially just dumps you when you fall on hard times after you've served whatever purpose you've served.

So what good is it being a Christian without this blind faith of pie-in-the-sky? Doesn't seem like faith in Jesus did John Chau any good except get him filled with arrow holes.

It's a psychological security blanket for many Christians. A twisted security blanket, but one nonetheless.

[normstad]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

......
All I'm doing is sharing the same viewpoint of the study that I posted. You, OTOH, has offered up NOTHING to support your baseless assertions. Typical. Here is more evidence to back me up:




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18799219


............

Did you read the entire abstract?

Quote:

"LIMITATIONS:
This was a cross-sectional survey and causality of relationships cannot be inferred."

Are you inferring something from it?

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by Shirina

I'm an immigrant to the USA - so maybe I value my individual freedoms a bit more than the average American who quite often take them for granted - and I really do not want to see this country turn into a theocratic-fascist state. And that is precisely where we are heading right now.

I am an American who greatly values my freedom and I am terrified at what I'm watching in the US. It's been going on far too long and it's only getting worse.

As you well know it's much easier for a corrupt government to control a population that's barely educated past high school, scientifically illiterate and who are bible thumpers that don't question anything.

Originally Posted by Shirina

Is diminishing another soul's hope and comfort worth saving the very principles of democracy, freedom, liberty, and equality?

I don't know. What do you think?

I know what think! Neither do I want to see this country turn into a theocratic-fascist state.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by normstad

Did you read the entire abstract?

Quote:

"LIMITATIONS:
This was a cross-sectional survey and causality of relationships cannot be inferred."

Are you inferring something from it?

I don't believe that he read any of it. And when we read it to him, he jammed his fingers in his ears and accused us of being biased.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by Matadora

I am an American who greatly values my freedom and I am terrified at what I'm watching in the US. It's been going on far too long and it's only getting worse.

As you well know it's much easier for a corrupt government to control a population that's barely educated past high school, scientifically illiterate and who are bible thumpers that don't question anything.
I know what think! Neither do I want to see this country turn into a theocratic-fascist state.

It isn't just you. in the UK (and perhaps Europe, though they are hardly talking to us these days) we are looking with horror at what is forming up all the way from the US through a hysterical and fragmented Europe with the Enemy in their midst, and Russia to China with the Middle east well in the mix. And while i don't believe that anyone who has a nuclear stockpile would actually embark on assured destruction - not even the apocalyptic -headed Tea -party, I think we can all guess who would (no, not N Korea, nor even Iran), if they ever got their hands on nuclear weaponry.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

You're right about that.

You're not going to talk Christians out of their beliefs using words, because (speaking for myself), I have experienced something that transcends all human opinions. I shan't be talked out of it by anyone.

There you have it...from people that CONSTANTLY tell atheists that they are 'closed-minded'.

I do have a question for you. Are you happy?
It'd be interesting to see the "happiness quotient" for atheists vs. believers.

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”
G.B Shaw

Originally Posted by Shirina

If Christians weren't constantly trying to undermine scientific advancement with garbage like Young Earth Creationism or trying to brainwash kids in a captive environment (i.e. school) into Christianity or denying climate change because "who cares anyway because Jaysus(!) is coming!" and otherwise making America the laughing stock of the world because our schools refuse to teach critical thinking and higher order thinking skills for the express reason of making kids more vulnerable to fundamentalist and extremist religious views; if these Christians weren't out there trying to ban books like Harry Potter and attacking public libraries with Sharpie markers to censor nudity in classical art or to scribble over any sentence with profanity in it; if they weren't having book burnings like neo-Nazis and wanting to be everyone's mommy and daddy there to tell us what we can read, watch, hear, eat, what to wear, what hairstyles to have, and basically trying to rule every aspect of your life ...

If these Christians weren't running around the world as missionaries destroying indiginous cultures and carelessly running roughshod over traditions thousands of years older than their own; if these Christians weren't in central Africa preaching about the evils of condoms in the most AIDs-ridden place on earth; if those same Christians weren't back here in the USA preaching "abstinance only" when every study ever done shows that "abstinance only" doesn't work; when those same Christians will deny a woman's right to control her own uterus and force her to give birth to an unwanted child while simultaneously voting for politicians who want to strip away every single government program that would help this new mother take care of that baby she never wanted; as long as Christians scream about gay marriage and transgenders as if these were the two biggest social issues of the modern era - even to the point where governors are sacrificing the economy of their state just to keep transgenders in their biological bathroom; when I have to watch Christians marching side-by-side with swastika-carrying neo-Nazis; when these same Christians go ape over responsible gun control legislation because the right to own a gun is more important than the very lives of their children.

If Christians weren't always trying to sneak Creationism into public school science curriculums; if Christian fanatics like Rev. Kevin Swanson are advocating a wholesale slaughter of homosexuals because it says to murder them in Deuteronomy...

If Christians weren't doing all of these things and more - much more, I wouldn't care what you or anyone else believed.

BRAVA!! Superb as always.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The placebo effect shouldn't even be a reality if atheism is true. I shouldn't be able to cause physical healing by having faith or willing something positive to happen.

Why? You have just asserted here that it should not be a reality under atheism. You have not in any way explained why not. And assertion is not evidence.

There is nothing about placebo - a subject I have studied very heavily in fact - that requires anything religious or supernatural.

In fact I suspect placebo and hypnotism share a very common root explanation. In that humans are what we call a Story Telling Animal - and placebo and hypnotism work because they are themselves stories which give us a mechanism by which to modify the other stories we tell ourselves.

So no - nothing about atheism negates placebo and aside from asserting it does - you have not shown any reason to think the assertion credible.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

I have experienced something that transcends all human opinions. I shan't be talked out of it by anyone.

Interestingly enough though you have not described any experience I have not had myself. And many other people have had similar experiences to what you have described. And myself and many others do not automatically parse those experiences through a religious narrative.

So therefore it seems the conclusions you reach from your experiences do not at all "transcend human opinions" but are in fact entirely dependent on them. Because the experiences themselves do not appear to vary much - but the opinions formed about what they were, and what they mean, do.

So your entire narrative is founded on the very thing you want to claim your narrative transcends.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

I do have a question for you. Are you happy?

Extremely.

Originally Posted by RosemaryT

Perhaps that's why it's especially puzzling to me that anyone would want to diminish another soul's hope and comfort in a Supreme Being.

And as I said in return - though you chose to simply ignore the post in question - was and is that you appear intent on holding others to standards, rules and constraints that you simply do not hold yourself to. So it is one rule for you and one for everyone else. It seems in your mind we should only be concerned for the well being of others when disagreeing with what _you_ have to say. But disagreeing with anything anyone else says - despite it having equal potentials for this - is aok for you.

I would say a prescription for a healthy dose of getting over yourself therefore is warranted and valid.

Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?

Nice try, but regardless of the content, Rosemary took the effort, creativity, originality and thoughtfulness to design an original package.

Girl done got ya beat...

As I said if you are impressed by dodges or personal attacks then so be it. I am not. Nor should I be. Nor do I hold as low a bar for "originality" as you do either.