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Come on Jeff. You started a thread accusing atheism of causing increased suicides. You were shown to be making a claim that didn't stand up. Now you are accusing us of being abusive when we pointed oit that your argument was invalid. It's pretty much your style - bash an atheist have your information shown unsound, get abusive and and accuse us of being abusive.
Your argument that we will never admit to being wrong isn't too brilliant either. You never , ever, admit to being wrong even when it is shown that you are. And the reason we rarely have to fess up is because we tend not to cherry -pick the data to suit what we want to believe. If the facts don't support atheism as the cause of increased suicides, it's hardly our fault if we don't say 'we are wrong' when we aren't.
And yet in the same thread, your side cherry picked data showing the crime in Bible belt states and implied that Christianity had any kind of relationship with that. Even when I disproved that absurd notion with backing evidence, it was ignored. Typical. Atheists will accept WITHOUT question any kind of data, poll, or survey that paints Christians in a negative light. Now that's some ripe cherry picking!
And yet in the same thread, your side cherry picked data showing the crime in Bible belt states and implied that Christianity had any kind of relationship with that. Even when I disproved that absurd notion with backing evidence, it was ignored. Typical. Atheists will accept WITHOUT question any kind of data, poll, or survey that paints Christians in a negative light. Now that's some ripe cherry picking!
They did. And if you can present convincing evidence that a higher level of crime, poverty, poor education or whatever in the former Confederate states is a false claim, or, if it is true, that you can show that it has no correlation with the higher levels of religious fundamentalism, then you will have made your point, which is not what you are making by saying 'You atheists do the same!' (1) We seem to have the stats on our side and you don't as your claims have been shown to be unsound. A case is better based on making a sound case than on furious finger- pointing.
(1) if I may make the point by analogy, Ii is like atheists saying 'The Bible says there was a Flood and Ark, a talking snake and Donkey and a mobile star.' and the believer saying 'You atheists are no better! You say that there is evolution, a Big bang and a secular morality!" Yes, but one isn't supported by the evidence and the other is.
Edit. To be fair you did post a fair response to the point
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Well that's a hypocritical position. You completely ignore factors like poverty and throw in a baseless association being that the states are in the Bible belt. So what? If the non-Bible belt states had this level of poverty, the crime would go up there too. Besides you do have non-Bible belt areas which are crime havens like Baltimore. Just take a look at the stats here. Hey look, District of Columbia is near the bottom for poverty. And no surprise, Washington DC is a high crime area, once known as the murder capitol.
The evidence is clear. Christianity has NOTHING to do with crime stats. This is the great lie of atheists. Blaming every single problem on Christians and pretending like they are the higher moral ground.
There is of course a rebuttal to that - the general trend is that Bible - belt states have higher level of crime, poverty wand so the correlation with higher levels of religion is not to be dismissed out of hand. Now, Baltimore may have a higher level of crime, and that may be because of poverty and there may be particular reasons for that, but if it is an anomaly, then the chain of causality to religion (or your argument implies, a lack of it) doesn't hold. The poverty in Baltimore is not related to religion but the poverty in the Bible belt is. That's the counter. I don't know whether the stats bear that out but that's where your counter- argument fails. Just as your argument from suicide- levels in Japan fails. The Link to higher levels of atheism is not borne out by the demographics of the place.
P.s odd. The list of poverty -ranking didn't seem to match the map. I'll have to look a bit further. And also see how how crime- rates relates to poverty. That might not actually be a causal relationship.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-15-2019 at 11:26 AM..
And yet in the same thread, your side cherry picked data showing the crime in Bible belt states and implied that Christianity had any kind of relationship with that. Even when I disproved that absurd notion with backing evidence, it was ignored. Typical. Atheists will accept WITHOUT question any kind of data, poll, or survey that paints Christians in a negative light. Now that's some ripe cherry picking!
I don't think that Jeff understands that by making this point, we are in effect, showing how ridiculous his point is. We aren't actually saying that religion is the cause of crime and poverty, but instead, showing how ridiculous it is to say such things.
I don't think that Jeff understands that by making this point, we are in effect, showing how ridiculous his point is. We aren't actually saying that religion is the cause of crime and poverty, but instead, showing how ridiculous it is to say such things.
I don't think that Jeff understands that by making this point, we are in effect, showing how ridiculous his point is. We aren't actually saying that religion is the cause of crime and poverty, but instead, showing how ridiculous it is to say such things.
I agree that religion is not the cause of crime and poverty; however, I do think it is also not the cure.
I agree that religion is not the cause of crime and poverty; however, I do think it is also not the cure.
Definitely not. It has been shown the world over, religion does not make a country more peaceful, just as lack of religion doesn't make a country less peaceful, and vice versa.
I agree that religion is not the cause of crime and poverty; however, I do think it is also not the cure.
It might be - if it worked as intended, ..or rather as it is Claimed by those advocating religion that it was intended. But it it a contentious claim that it does make people better, reduce crime, improve morals, etc. For one thing, atheism never had much of a chance to show what a 'humanist' society looks like (1). I did btw have a look at demographics on poverty on crime and on religion, and it is possible to point to some rough correlation with the Bible -belt (which, is not these days just another name for the old Confederate states), but i wouldn't want to draw Any particular causal relationships between religion (or lack of it) and crime.
(1) You need a footnote when a parenthesis gets longer than the post Marxists states were dictatorships for the most part and while they may 'Get things done' and have such intense control that crime may be low, you can't use those to show how how a secularist democracy would work - especially one where the values of humanist morality, secularist reasoning and all the pointy -eared stuff are not taught, but people just stop doing religion. That's would be the difference between an atheist who has done all the arguments and the atheists who has never had anything to do with religion.
Gee Jeff, what ever happened to the old adages, "All sins are created equal" and "Hate the sin, not the sinner?" It seems to me you started this thread to show your disdain for a group of people who don't share your beliefs... as if Christians have no sin.
Last edited by maiden_fern; 08-17-2019 at 03:49 PM..
And yet in the same thread, your side cherry picked data showing the crime in Bible belt states and implied that Christianity had any kind of relationship with that. Even when I disproved that absurd notion with backing evidence, it was ignored. Typical. Atheists will accept WITHOUT question any kind of data, poll, or survey that paints Christians in a negative light. Now that's some ripe cherry picking!
I've made that point a number of times - but without the implication that Christianity had anything to do with it*.
You're making that connection all on your own, Jeff, and you sure are defensive about it.
* - I do think that fundamentalist thinking tends to correlate with an ineffectual criminal justice system, which is really no surprise. But cause-and-effect? I wouldn't go that far. It's funny that you jump to that conclusion, though.
PS - Citing comprehensive FBI annual data which shows that VIOLENT CRIME IS MUCH HIGHER IN THE SOUTH is not cherry-picking. Sorry, Jeff, but you really suck at logic.
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Marxists states were dictatorships for the most part and while they may 'Get things done' and have such intense control that crime may be low, you can't use those to show how how a secularist democracy would work - especially one where the values of humanist morality, secularist reasoning and all the pointy -eared stuff are not taught, but people just stop doing religion. That's would be the difference between an atheist who has done all the arguments and the atheists who has never had anything to do with religion.
