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I read the story on two other sites yesterday, one American (not the Fox report) and the other European. Both mentioned that the parents had met with the priest before the funeral to discuss the arrangements and what they wanted as a homily. This may have been the U.S. site.
I am a former Catholic, and was raised in the era when unbaptized babies and suicides were buried in a section of ground outside the regular cemetery, etc. My infant sister could only be buried in a cemetery with her Protestant grandparents if the grave was constructed according to the specifications of the priest so that is would be a little piece of Catholic holy ground within the heretical graveyard. Thus, this priest's doctrinal stand seems SOP for R.C. clergy.
What I think is heinous is that he did not come right out at the meeting with the parents and state what his position was, and that he could not conduct their son's funeral without questioning his act and mentioning his possible condemnation to hell. This - to my mind - is the bigger problem. He could have spared them the ugliness that he made of their son's funeral by being forthright, but he evidently was not. He treacherously set them up for pain and humiliation.
You have your doctrinal beliefs, father - okay, give this funeral a no-go; but his preferred route was one of evil.
thats it ... doing the best we can with open and honest discourse.
What I think is heinous is that he did not come right out at the meeting with the parents and state what his position was, and that he could not conduct their son's funeral without questioning his act and mentioning his possible condemnation to hell. This - to my mind - is the bigger problem. He could have spared them the ugliness that he made of their son's funeral by being forthright, but he evidently was not. He treacherously set them up for pain and humiliation.
I agree with this. I was raised Roman Catholic and this IS doctrine, whether you agree with it or not. Still, my parents had a priest who always said, "First, don't hurt feelings". I never met him but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have hammered people over the head with doctrine when they were reeling from the shock of losing a loved one who was clearly suffering mentally or they would not have committed suicide.
And yes, some Protestant denominations believe this. A woman in my Episcopal church who lost her daughter to suicide in the 1960s said one well-meaning friend told her, "Your daughter was a lovely person- I'm sure God will forgive her".
My own personal belief is that suicide is complex and happens for a variety of reasons including PTSD, mental illness and even the wrong combination of meds used to treat mental illness. I hope that the God I know wouldn't condemn people for conditions beyond their control.
Sort of like people going on Christian message boards and attacking religion, trying to destroy their belief. There are bad people that just like to mock people everywhere. This priest was wrong.
You can not avoid attacking atheism, can you?
And there is a difference. If pointing out why you are wrong is an attack, then that is not our fault that you have strange and irrational beliefs. Your beliefs may provide comfort, they also kill people; and are used to discriminate against people.
This is a Catholic thing. Protestants do not believe this.
I've been to a lot of funerals over the years and, unfortunately in many cases, you're very wrong.
My longtime assistant had a beautiful, graceful soul. Kind, wonderful attitude, and never had a negative word about anything or anyone. She was the kind of person who never thought of herself first, but put her family, her church, and everything else before her needs. Honest to goodness, there were times when I had to tell her not to come into work, encouraging her instead to go to her son's baseball game or to just take a day off for herself. Just to tell you what a selfless person she was, four days before her death, she insisted her sister call me to make sure I had all the files she had completed. She was just that kind of person. If there was ever a person who lived life with a loving heart, it was Kellie.
Through her two-year battle with cancer, she never doubted her faith. Never got angry. Simply accepted that she had a life filled with gifts. She left behind a great husband and two teenaged sons.
So my wife and I attended her funeral, fully prepared to be devastated by the loss of such a trusted friend and colleague. Instead, we were deeply angered by the preacher, who delivered a twenty-minute harangue about sin and evil, capped off by speculation on whether she was roasting in hell or enjoying heaven. It was less about Kellie or compassion for her family and more by-the-numbers blatant self-promotion. I left wondering if the nitwit had more than a five minute conversation with the woman. It was a deep disservice to a woman whose walk with Christ was patently obvious to all who knew her.
If you are indeed of the fire-and-brimstone approach to Christ, have at it during your regular Sunday services. But a funeral is about commemorating the dead and comforting the survivors, not a golden opportunity to get your digs in.
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 12-16-2018 at 08:04 AM..
I agree with this. I was raised Roman Catholic and this IS doctrine, whether you agree with it or not. Still, my parents had a priest who always said, "First, don't hurt feelings". I never met him but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have hammered people over the head with doctrine when they were reeling from the shock of losing a loved one who was clearly suffering mentally or they would not have committed suicide.
And yes, some Protestant denominations believe this. A woman in my Episcopal church who lost her daughter to suicide in the 1960s said one well-meaning friend told her, "Your daughter was a lovely person- I'm sure God will forgive her".
My own personal belief is that suicide is complex and happens for a variety of reasons including PTSD, mental illness and even the wrong combination of meds used to treat mental illness. I hope that the God I know wouldn't condemn people for conditions beyond their control.
excellent point.
The priest didn't have to mention any church doctrine in this case (public homily). he could have talk about the deceased in a flattering manner and did his job by giving the family closure in a public setting as best he could.
everything else is church rules.
During that speech its about the living.
I've been to a lot of funerals over the years and, unfortunately in many cases, you're very wrong.
My longtime assistant had a beautiful, graceful soul. Kind, wonderful attitude, and never had a negative word about anything or anyone. She was the kind of person who never thought of herself first, but put her family, her church, and everything else before her needs. Honest to goodness, there were times when I had to tell her not to come into work, encouraging her instead to go to her son's baseball game or to just take a day off for herself. Just to tell you what a selfless person she was, four days before her death, she insisted her sister call me to make sure I had all the files she had completed. She was just that kind of person. If there was ever a person who lived life with a loving heart, it was Kellie.
Through her two-year battle with cancer, she never doubted her faith. Never got angry. Simply accepted that she had a life filled with gifts. She left behind a great husband and two teenaged sons.
So my wife and I attended her funeral, fully prepared to be devastated by the loss of such a trusted friend and colleague. Instead, we were deeply angered by the preacher, who delivered a twenty-minute harangue about sin and evil, capped off by speculation on whether she was roasting in hell or enjoying heaven. It was less about Kellie or compassion for her family and more by-the-numbers blatant self-promotion. I left wondering if the nitwit had more than a five minute conversation with the woman. It was a deep disservice to a woman whose walk with Christ was patently obvious to all who knew her.
If you are indeed of the fire-and-brimstone approach to Christ, have at it during your regular Sunday services. But a funeral is about commemorating the dead and comforting the survivors, not a golden opportunity to get your digs in.
I really hope most Christian preachers don't conduct themselves in this manner. I am Jewish and have met with three different rabbis and cantors (I had a cantor officiate my mother's funeral) during the brief interval between death and the funeral. The Jewish religion mandates that the interval be extremely brief.
The first time was in January 1973. We met with the rabbi Friday, shortly after my father passed away We discussed what the Rabbi was going to say at the funeral. Since I was 15 years old I was not going to be speaking How men for a variety of reasons my mother was not going to be speaking. The speech is the rabbi gave had very little to do with religion in a lot to do with the deceased. Including his guitar-playing acumen.
The second time was in December 2013 My stepfather had just passed away, and for a lot of I was coordinating the speaking engagements at the funeral. Since by that time I was 56 years old, I was in a position to speak, and would deliver much of the eulogies. My step sister delivered about 2 minutes of eulogy, and I delivered about eight minutes. The Rabbi spoke for about 3 minutes, much of which was the standard Jewish prayers, including, notably, the psalm "G-d is my shepherd...." It was much the same with my mother's death year later, except that I chose the cantor, rather than one of the Rabbis, to officiate.
The preparation for these personalized funeral does take a significant amount of clerical time. Because the funeral must be held promptly after the death, whatever the chosen cleric has on his schedule gets bounced so that he can meet with the family in person, typically for a 30 to 45 minutes. At the meeting involving my father, on January 5, 1973, I learned a significant amount about the Jewish religion that my Sunday school and Hebrew school teachers, for whatever reason, somehow forgot to teach. This is a large part of what brought my interest in Judaism.
I was waiting for someone to tell me my son was going to hell for his suicide. I'm not sure what I was planning to do - probably tell him exactly how where and when to go to hell themself. But no-one did.
Interesting. I pretty much take anything on the internet with a grain of salt but one thing that truly upsets me is when people get on the internet and claim that suicide victims are "selfish" or are "cowards". As you stated, these people won't say that to your face, but by gosh they'll get on line and do it without issue. Kind of cowardly if you ask me.
So I'll give this priest credit. This priest was willing to state his true belief about suicide victims...…….of course, in a completely inappropriate setting. Sheesh.
And there is a difference. If pointing out why you are wrong is an attack, then that is not our fault that you have strange and irrational beliefs. Your beliefs may provide comfort, they also kill people; and are used to discriminate against people.
A priest laid it right between the eyes at a funeral, to the mourners as well as to the parents; the 18 year old youth, a Straight A student, who committed suicide was not going to go to heaven. I am uncertain whether the priest had any control over the matter, but apparently, it does not matter how the person lived their life or what drove them to the point of desperation.
Most of the leaders in my particular religion, thankfully, believe that the right question to ask is not whether the person is going to heaven or down below, but what kind of life they lived, and who they've helped, in the living world. But to me, this is no way to comfort mourners. It is a public shaming, and why?
There is more than one way for these voodoo charlatans to molest their gullible flocks. Ultimately however the responsibility lies with the gullible sheep for continuing to buy into the nonsense being handed out by the voodoo charlatans.
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