10,000 Churches a Year Close--Pointing to a Savior Who, If Not Imaginary, is An Absolute Do-Nothing (bible, quote)
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Good enough. I didn't pick up from the conversation that you were agnostic. You sound just like a Fundie.
LOL....
First off, thank you for the detailed response, you certainly appear to be passionate and committed to your opinion and stance, and your history makes you more than qualified to offer opinion on the subject matter IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
No if I have misstated the circumstantial evidence please point it out to me.
I do not believe we will see eye to eye here, and may likely wind up in a "hamster cage" of arguments that spin and spin but get us nowhere. If I might offer the following equations on a rhetorical basis (I am not trying to sidetrack the thread to Islam and Allah) one problem solved in accordance with your argument platform, the other not solved, and a question mark left at the end. One could fill in the question mark, or not, it's all good!...
Decrease Of Christian Churches = Stronger Evidence Jesus Does Not Exist
I have showed two things, that the number of churches do not prove the existence of a deity and that you cannot prove that something does not exit [it is an impossibility].
You keep insisting on evidence, yet you could not provide evidence of the things YOU believe in. You didn't answer the question but I assume you believe LOVE exist. Give me tangible evidence of its existence; I mean scientific provable evidence. It is impossible. At most you could show that humans show affection and care for one another, but even animals do that. When talking about the deep personal experience for one another that we call LOVE, you cannot show any evidence of its existence; yet we all believe in it. In the case of Jesus, he represent universal love (as I understand it).
So to make it simple, Neither I nor anybody can "prove" the existence of Jesus. Yet, when they are people who claim that he does exist, all we can say is: I cannot see it; whether he exists or not I cannot say. So yes, it remains a believe, one I that I feel is positive in my life. If you think this believe is not positive, then that's your decision. But do not try to push irrational arguments.
You see, people, Christians will always side-step the issue by appealing to something--ANYTHING--but the issue at hand. Logo is using fairness ("You didn't show me yours so why should I show you mine?" ) as an excuse not to answer my question. It's obviously a dodge because like I said logo doesn't have any evidence to show us. So he tries to divert the conversation away to anything except THE EVIDENCE.
Logo, like I said, I KNOW you don't have any external evidence to offer us ("us" being the world) that Jesus is alive and operating in his church today. That's why you keep dragging the conversation off track. But like I said, it's okay. Nobody here--Christian or non-Christian--expects you to be able to come through with my request because no such evidence exists. And that still begs the question of
"What do Christians base their belief on Jesus being alive today that would be convincing enough for us non-believers to be just as convinced as you Christians that Jesus is alive?"
Any Christian, the ball is in your court. Offer me something that I cannot possibly refute as an honest intelligent person and I will believe in Jesus again. You can literally save my soul if you're able.
You see, people, Christians will always side-step the issue by appealing to something--ANYTHING--but the issue at hand. Logo is using fairness ("You didn't show me yours so why should I show you mine?" ) as an excuse not to answer my question. It's obviously a dodge because like I said logo doesn't have any evidence to show us. So he tries to divert the conversation away to anything except THE EVIDENCE.
Logo, like I said, I KNOW you don't have any external evidence to offer us ("us" being the world) that Jesus is alive and operating in his church today. That's why you keep dragging the conversation off track. But like I said, it's okay. Nobody here--Christian or non-Christian--expects you to be able to come through with my request because no such evidence exists. And that still begs the question of
"What do Christians base their belief on Jesus being alive today that would be convincing enough for us non-believers to be just as convinced as you Christians that Jesus is alive?"
Any Christian, the ball is in your court. Offer me something that I cannot possibly refute as an honest intelligent person and I will believe in Jesus again. You can literally save my soul if you're able.
I am not trying to convince you of anything, it is up to you what you choose to believe or not. I am just saying you are asking the wrong question.
"You didn't show me yours so why should I show you mine?" This is not at all what I meant, your comment shows you inability to follow one's argument. The point was that there are things we assume to be real even though there is no way to prove them. Still you respond that "Nobody here--Christian or non-Christian--expects you to be able to come through with my request because no such evidence exists." I know there is no such evidence; that's what I've been saying. Try reading my comment again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogo
I have showed two things, that the number of churches do not prove the existence of a deity and that you cannot prove that something does not exit [it is an impossibility].
You keep insisting on evidence, yet you could not provide evidence of the things YOU believe in. You didn't answer the question but I assume you believe LOVE exist. Give me tangible evidence of its existence; I mean scientific provable evidence. It is impossible. At most you could show that humans show affection and care for one another, but even animals do that. When talking about the deep personal experience for one another that we call LOVE, you cannot show any evidence of its existence; yet we all believe in it. In the case of Jesus, he represent universal love (as I understand it).
So to make it simple, Neither I nor anybody can "prove" the existence of Jesus. Yet, when there are people who claim that he does exist, all we can say is: I cannot see it; whether he exists or not I cannot say. So yes, it remains a believe, one I that I feel is positive in my life. If you think this believe is not positive, then that's your decision. But do not try to push irrational arguments.
I am not trying to convince you of anything, it is up to you what you choose to believe or not. I am just saying you are asking the wrong question.
"You didn't show me yours so why should I show you mine?" This is not at all what I meant, your comment shows you inability to follow one's argument. The point was that there are things we assume to be real even though there is no way to prove them. Still you respond that "Nobody here--Christian or non-Christian--expects you to be able to come through with my request because no such evidence exists." I know there is no such evidence; that's what I've been saying. Try reading my comment again.
You know, logo, I believe you are right. It's not necessary to go back and forth. I had an "Aha" moment in my bathroom just now--brushing my teeth, funny enough. The "aha" was this: it's not necessary to argue whether Jesus exists today or not. What makes Jesus important, dead or alive, is that he gives millions of good people a reason to get up in the morning and face the day in a really cruel and horrible world where there's nobody to protect them but their belief that Jesus is on their side. The rise or fall of Christianity will take care of itself. No good can come of me robbing people of hope. The population will decide about Jesus on their own by either opening churches or shutting them down.
I believe it's time for me to stop my threads against Jesus. I might comment on other's threads here and there but I will start no more of my own. A promise I make to the good Christians here.
As for prayer, God does not hear the prayer of the sinner. (John 9:31). (Ecc 7:28).
One would imagine that they are the very people that your god would be welcoming. After all, isn't there more joy in your heaven over one sinner that repents??
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
What makes Jesus important, dead or alive, is that he gives millions of good people a reason to get up in the morning and face the day in a really cruel and horrible world where there's nobody to protect them but their belief that Jesus is on their side. (
One would imagine that they are the very people that your god would be welcoming. After all, isn't there more joy in your heaven over one sinner that repents??
So does heroin.
You're quite Rafius. But none of us are going to stop people from using heroin any more than we're going to stop people from believing in Jesus. Eh! I'm burned out. No more Jesus threads for me.
Love may not be able to be proved scientifically but those who love do show it by their observable actions.
That is not the case with the disappearing god or Jesus
For 60 years, you had a relationship with Jesus, praying to Him, worshipping Him, reading and studying His word, fellowshipping with other believers, and then you stopped? That’s like getting a divorce after 50 years of marriage.
So, for 60 years, Jesus was alive and active in your life. Then, nothing? You tolerated “nothing” for 60 years?
As for what Jesus has done lately, JeffBase gave you an example and you dismissed it out of hand. Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
I doubt JeffBase gave us an example; and no, we never dismiss his arguments out of hand. we point out why they are either wrong, or that they do not actually support his position.
As for Jeffbase's response, yes I dismissed it out of hand--because it was idiotic.
Is that dismissing it out of hand? It sounds like a good reason. Or am I misunderstanding the phrase 'out of hand'?
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