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Christianity would have more credibility if most Christians would stop with the miracles nonsense. I’m left to assume that those 5 children died a horrific death because there were just too many other Christians who had lost their keys.
I thought St. Anthony was put in charge of lost keys.
I don’t think it’s up to one to question where Jesus is, when these things happen, as in the sense of an accusatory ‘he obviously doesn’t give a <<bleep>> tone, which the OP appears to have. All that tone does is highlight the darkness of ones own heart, in judging others, if one believes that person is real. If one believes Jesus is not real, then the motive has to be stir up trouble for the poor naive so and so’s who are deluded, which again, is rather dark. I mean, has one nothing better to do.
I’ve pondered apparent traumatic death experience before - who hasn’t - and found solace in NDE testimonies, especially that of Betty Eadie in her book Embraced by the light, where she says she was told by her spirit guides when on the other side, that when a person’s moment of death comes their spirit is taken from the body before the trauma happens. And, it can even appear that the person (body) is still alive yet they have already gone.
I also heard recently that the birthing experience is more traumatic for a soul than the death experience. I cannot possibly say myself, but what is clear is that pondering death is all about fear, and if any of the above is anything to go by, it could easily be the case that the fear of death is actually worse than death, ...and my spirit witnesses that that is the case.
So, by faith, when those kids were getting dragged down the road under the car (I didn’t read the article) I think I can say he was right there taking them into his loving arms. Thank you Father.
Last edited by mensaguy; 01-07-2019 at 05:42 AM..
Reason: language
What you have is, a crictique on a certain aspect on Christian theology.
I am not sure what’s the point of posting such posts?
Did someone ask you to open the OP and tell about your findings? Probably not.
Are you subtlety proselytizing that since you found a flaw in the Christian doctrine so the rest of the Christian world could also take a note from your “deeply thought philosophy” and leave their religion?
If certain aspects of Christianity does not sit well with your logic and intelligence then reject it and move on. But that’s where the problem comes in.
“Move on”, but to where?
You probably don’t have a destination so you are wandering around picking up on things for fun and time pass. In such cases, usually one runs out of doing things and gets fed up.
Otherwise if you had a destination and if you were on a journey to recognize God by his signs then you would perhaps an idea that if Christianity does not sit well with your logic, then it doesn’t automatically mean that God does not exist. You would continue with your and “Moved on”.
Quote:
I am not sure what’s the point of posting such posts?
Did someone ask you to open the OP and tell about your findings?
No, no one coaxed me to start the thread. I saw the news article and immediately all these questions flooded into my mind. I will address them as I go along. Proselytizing? Hardly. And what flaw would that be? The fact that Christians pray and such tragedies still ensue? That's what I'd like to explore here. Leave their religion? Listen, I have no qualms if people want to have conversations with themselves and pretend God is listening and responding. I have said before I believe prayer is excellent therapy for hurting souls who need to talk with God to work issues out. Talking to oneself helps bring things into better perspective from which they can then move toward a helpful resolution to their problems.
I have no doubt the children and their church leaders said a prayer before departing on this tragic trek. Likely the prayer went something like "Heavenly Father, whose glory fills the whole creation, and whose presence we find wherever we go, you said that if we ask for anything in Jesus name you would grant it. We ask in Jesus' name that you preserve us on this trip. Surround us with your loving care; protect us from every danger; and bring us safety to our journey's end; for we ask this through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and protector. Amen.”
So what went wrong? Did these children have unresolved sin in their lives? Was God's idea of safety different from theirs?
Quote:
“If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him.”
Wasn't a safe trip a good enough gift for God to give these children?
Were they disobedient? Was it the wrong time or not God's own "time" to ask for safety? Were they not asking in faith and so their prayer was ineffectual? Did God have something better prepared for them than being smeared on highway asphalt?
Believe it not these are common excuses given by apologists when confronted with unanswered prayer. I am simply trying to understand why, when Christian pray with all the prerequisites in place God or Jesus still doesn't see fit to answer them, especially a prayer for safety done in faith in Jesus and with no underlying impediments (I mean what sort of impediment can a 5 year old child have), they still get physically separated into several sections underneath a giant Mack truck. And for the record I do believe in God. And I have a story to tell how faith in God got damaged beyond repair if the conversation is fruitful and without rancor.
Please help me to understand why these children had to die the way they did.
I know right, what's up with that anyway? Thrill comes around like a gangbuster and poof, gone like smoke and you make a thread titled,'' If anyone sees my buddy Thrill, just hollar out and I will hear ya.''
Over here thinking Thrill must have died in his sleep and met God, then suddenly its a new day and Thrill pops in like a gang buster again.
I don’t think it’s up to one to question where Jesus is, when these things happen, as in the sense of an accusatory ‘he obviously doesn’t give a <<bleep>> tone, which the OP appears to have. All that tone does is highlight the darkness of ones own heart, in judging others, if one believes that person is real. If one believes Jesus is not real, then the motive has to be stir up trouble for the poor naive so and so’s who are deluded, which again, is rather dark. I mean, has one nothing better to do.
I’ve pondered apparent traumatic death experience before - who hasn’t - and found solace in NDE testimonies, especially that of Betty Eadie in her book Embraced by the light, where she says she was told by her spirit guides when on the other side, that when a person’s moment of death comes their spirit is taken from the body before the trauma happens. And, it can even appear that the person (body) is still alive yet they have already gone.
I also heard recently that the birthing experience is more traumatic for a soul than the death experience. I cannot possibly say myself, but what is clear is that pondering death is all about fear, and if any of the above is anything to go by, it could easily be the case that the fear of death is actually worse than death, ...and my spirit witnesses that that is the case.
So, by faith, when those kids were getting dragged down the road under the car (I didn’t read the article) I think I can say he was right there taking them into his loving arms. Thank you Father.
Mod note re the bolded. Part of the decision to reopen this thread was a discussion with the OP in which he convinced this mod that the motive for opening the discussion was to obtain some actual feedback on his perception of why Jesus does not appear to be what he is claimed to be.
The subsequent paragraphs in the above post appear to have been written thoughtfully in that spirit.
It's an interesting topic that I think we can keep going as long as everyone keeps in mind that it is a question, not an attack.
why Jesus does not appear to be what he is claimed to be.
[/u]
I don't think there is much that Jesus says in the gospels regarding his protection from car crashes. There might be something in there about him protecting you from falling off of your a$$ and onto your a$$ though.
When bad things happen to good people, (let's make that sweeping statement to cover lots of things)...
I have never once blamed God.
(It would never cross my mind to blame Jesus or Krishna either.)
When I was very immature, I blamed my parents a lot, tho.....ha, no more; wisdom prevailed!
I thank them now and the Universe that figured out for me to be with them.
For one thing, even tho I have had my share of enormous heart ache from deaths and injuries, oh my...(if I told you
you wouldn't believe this pain could happen to anyone unless they stepped on a landmine....
but I'm ok, took 2 yrs)...
I never thought anything was done or not done by the 'Supreme Being that created everything'.
Just like a friend that was in the hospital for 6 months after a car hit him while he was on a sidewalk...I look at myself.
All the good, the bad and the ugly comes from me. All of it...all the lessons, the boomerang reaping of what I have sown...all about ME.
It is the System that has been brilliantly set up.
I don't know why you, Thrill or a Catholic woman in my old Book Club, thinks to blame Jesus or God that they didn't step in.
I will be one of those that falls into the category of saying: There is a much bigger picture at play...we don't have all the info..so be quiet, don't judge the situation.
To those that don't have belief or direct exp from, say, an NDE, or an STE, (spiritually transforming exp of any kind)...
I understand this is a tough statement to swallow, of course!!!
So don't believe a word I say.
Seeing is believing...I am a big proponent of that..hang in there, maybe a roof tile will fall on
your head someday and open some Cosmic Insight in your brain!
Ya never know.
Cuz the logical intellect is not ever going to give you satisfactory answers into the Unseen...
I realized that when I was 19. (Well, with help from Jung, B. Russell and Einstein...they said it.)
What you say makes a lot of sense, Miss Hepburn...to a deist like me. Deists know that God doesn't intervene a whit in human affairs and so to a deist these children's deaths are just par for the course we call life. Happens to atheists, happens to Hindus, happens to Muslims, happens to Krishnas.
But the early Christian leaders have made promises in Jesus name that Jesus would protect anyone who comes to Jesus and I've pointed them out before. They are found in all four gospels--the only promise Jesus made that can be found in all four gospels, as a matter of fact:
"If you ask for anything in my name my Father will grant it"
Naturally it was a promise Jesus couldn't possibly keep and so he doesn't. But if there IS anything to this promise then shouldn't it work? And if it doesn't work, as seems to be the case for millions of Christians then shouldn't Christians just own up to that fact--that Jesus made promises he didn't intend to keep?
But if Christians have no problem with Jesus not keeping them safe as the Bible promises he will then why do they continue pray to him for safety as these children and their leaders likely did and as millions of Christians do everyday?
And certainly the majority do stay safe. But a sizable percentage commensurate with their percentage of the American population--what is it, 70% claim to be Christian--do die horribly the way all non-believers and persons of other faiths do. Statistically there are no anomalies. But if we're to believe the Bible we'd expect there to be huge anomalies that would give Christians a gigantic edge on safety. Christians should know all this and yet apparently they don't so they keep praying when the statistics say they get no edge for getting their prayers answered over non-believers who don't bother to pray.
THIS is what I don't comprehend and I desperately want to comprehend this.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 01-06-2019 at 06:23 PM..
What you say makes a lot of sense, Miss Hepburn...to a deist like me. Deists know that God doesn't intervene a whit in human affairs and so to a deist these children's deaths are just par for the course we call life. Happens to atheists, happens to Hindus, happens to Muslims, happens to Krishnas.
But the early Christian leaders have made promises in Jesus name that Jesus would protect anyone who comes to Jesus and I've pointed them out before. They are found in all four gospels--the only promise Jesus made that can be found in all four gospels, as a matter of fact:
"If you ask for anything in my name my Father will grant it"
Naturally it was a promise Jesus couldn't possibly keep and so he doesn't. But if there IS anything to this promise then shouldn't it work? And if it doesn't work, as seems to be the case for millions of Christians then shouldn't Christians just own up to that fact--that Jesus made promises he didn't intend to keep?
But if Christians have no problem with Jesus not keeping them safe as the Bible promises he will then why do they continue pray to him for safety as these children and their leaders did?
THIS is what I don't comprehend and I desperately want to comprehend this.
I think they should own up to saying jesus made promises that he didn't make.
maybe, jesus was just saying things like "if you do the best you can, things generally, work out." If you "follow some of my instructions you have a better chance." maybe he gave some really sound self help stuff.
thats why i kind of shy away from all evil god or jesus broke promises. I think maybe he didn't make any promises past what we tell people today. I think people made the biblegod evil looking and i think people make sound teaching look stupid..
This is the same old nonsense we've already discussed many times before on this forum.
God/Jesus never said or ever indicated that he would run to our rescue, save us from the flying bullet, etc. Anyone saying otherwise is completely ignorant of what the Bible says (the usual case), or wants to lie about Judaism and Christianity.
We are born to die. None of us can escape it. Life is imperfect. We all know that, and the Bible speaks to that.
The ideal for Christians and non-believers alike is to make the most of everyday. Jesus even talks about not worrying about tomorrow, and focusing on today. There are scriptures along those lines.
Beyond all of that, Jesus didn't come to "do things for us". He lived as an example, as a teacher. His life can be modeled or not, but that's up to each person. People are stupidly trying to change him into a bodyguard.
But here is the question underlying all this, Thoreau:
If Jesus never made any such promises he would protect Christians then why do Christians continuously pray for protection?
This is what I keep searching for an answer to but so far no Christian seems to want to touch it. At least in a detailed and meaningful way.
Did the pastor's wife who was along on the trip and who lost several grandchildren say to the children, "Now children, we're going to pray that Jesus protects us. Now Jesus doesn't say anywhere in the gospels he's going to protect us but we're going to pray he does just the same?"
I mean what kind of sense does that make? So if millions of Christians are ignorant of what you seem to already know, Thoreau, then why aren't pastors climbing into their bully pulpits and telling them that Jesus never promised to protect them?
This is the same old nonsense we've already discussed many times before on this forum.
God/Jesus never said or ever indicated that he would run to our rescue, save us from the flying bullet, etc. Anyone saying otherwise is completely ignorant of what the Bible says (the usual case), or wants to lie about Judaism and Christianity.
We are born to die. None of us can escape it. Life is imperfect. We all know that, and the Bible speaks to that.
The ideal for Christians and non-believers alike is to make the most of everyday. Jesus even talks about not worrying about tomorrow, and focusing on today. There are scriptures along those lines.
Beyond all of that, Jesus didn't come to "do things for us". He lived as an example, as a teacher. His life can be modeled or not, but that's up to each person. People are stupidly trying to change him into a bodyguard.
Yet, churches/Christians continue to pray for everything under the sun. Why pray? Why always giving credit to a god for every positive outcome, but dismissing the bad?
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.....ha, no more; wisdom prevailed!
