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therefore....nothing to be "amazed" about
unless someone fails to grasp really basic concepts. Raf's post falls into that category
Well if you can't see the very real difference between the two I'm clearly wasting my time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
I don't think it has anything to do with Raf not grasping basic concepts.
He is using hyperbole to make a point... He wonders why faith in an afterlife that is supposed to far surpass the tribulations of our life here doesn't somehow override the survival instinct.
Yes. I don't understand why Christians aren't falling over themselves to get there.
No, I got no such thing, Pleroo. Fundies like jimmij and Baptistfundie and their compadres are experts at apologizing for Jesus. They're not fools. They see that God doesn't listen to prayer requests. But they have to keep the lie alive that He does, right?
I don't think they can see that God doesn't listen. Answering in the manner which by all appearances one would expect based on some of the passages in the bible, that's a different matter. But my point is, I don't know any Christians who DO take those passages at face value to mean all their requests will be answered and no harm will come to them. That's what you said you wished, I thought.
But now that I go back and read, it seems what you really wish is that Christians believed that God is nowhere to be found and doesn't care? May I ask why you think people would be better off going from one extreme of thought to another?
And my reply to that was, the survival instinct. I don't believe that is easily overridden.
Suicide bombers don't seem to have a problem overcoming it. I think that if Christians REALLY believed that they were going to spend an eternity in paradise with the entity that they have grovelled before for most of their lives then nothing would hold them back. That they are not lining up to go is a good indication of their doubts.
Suicide bombers don't seem to have a problem overcoming it. I think that if Christians REALLY believed that they were going to spend an eternity in paradise with the entity that they have grovelled before for most of their lives then nothing would hold them back. That they are not lining up to go is a good indication of their doubts.
Doubt would have me going along with Pascal's Wager which I do not do.
Not all Christians (or other "believers") treat their faith like a get out of jail free card or a ticket to heaven. Their faith/trust that God is present in the here and now is profoundly important to them. Not being certain about how/if that will translate to an afterlife doesn't negate the value it has for them now.
I don't think they can see that God doesn't listen. Answering in the manner which by all appearances one would expect based on some of the passages in the bible, that's a different matter. But my point is, I don't know any Christians who DO take those passages at face value to mean all their requests will be answered and no harm will come to them. That's what you said you wished, I thought.
But now that I go back and read, it seems what you really wish is that Christians believed that God is nowhere to be found and doesn't care? May I ask why you think people would be better off going from one extreme of thought to another?
Your post has two questions, Pleroo. I'll take them one by one:
Quote:
I don't think they can see that God doesn't listen. Answering in the manner which by all appearances one would expect based on some of the passages in the bible, that's a different matter. But my point is, I don't know any Christians who DO take those passages at face value to mean all their requests will be answered and no harm will come to them. That's what you said you wished, I thought.
I think all Christians, except the deranged ones, don't hear an audible voice of God talking back to them. Most get this warm fuzzy feeling in their heart which they interpret as the Holy Spirit talking back to them. They may imagine they heard a "Yes" or a "No" sometimes. They didn't of course. That was just their subconscious or their emotions talking back to them in response to some difficulty they are facing. "Should I leaven my church?" "No" their emotions says back to them so they go to their friends and say, The Holy Spirit told me I shouldn't leave." Happened to me all the time when I was a Christian. So in their minds God is really listening and answering. But He isn't, of course. It's all in their heads. That's point #1.
You say,
"But my point is, I don't know any Christians who DO take those passages at face value to mean all their requests will be answered and no harm will come to them."
I imagine if they're in their right minds some realize this on some level. But then if they know they stand just as good or bad odds of winning the lottery or being killed on the highway as an atheist why do they bother to pray for protection? Is it because Paul commands them to "pray in all thing without ceasing"? There doesn't seem to be any value to praying for protection except for some vague feeling of supernatural protection they may feel is now surrounding them after they pray. From a practical point there's no value to the prayer. So why pray?
My only wish is that all Christians would come to realize that, as Mike555 and Thoreau and a few other Christians admitted, "Jesus never promised to protect Christians from harm". And that includes dopey ministers who pray for protection for a month before stepping into a river of crocodiles and getting torn to shreds in a matter of minutes
Quote:
A Pastor Tries to Walk on Water and Gets Devoured by Crocodiles in Front of His Whole Church
But now that I go back and read, it seems what you really wish is that Christians believed that God is nowhere to be found and doesn't care? May I ask why you think people would be better off going from one extreme of thought to another?
I didn't mean to imply He doesn't care. What I was trying to say is that as a deist God he has deliberately removed Himself from taking part in what goes on in this earth and has fixed natural laws in place to govern everything. There hasn't been a single incidence of a supernatural intervention by God that can be demonstrated scientifically i.e. video, photo, medically, geologically or otherwise. I'd say until someone can produce a video of Jesus that passes muster with the scientific community it is certain to stay that way.
Now as I said, if Christians want to have conversations with themselves and pretend or fool themselves into believing they're talking with Jesus that perfectly fine. I find great value in that because talking out one's problems with someone, even if they are imaginary, has great therapeutic value for relieving distress, heartache, pressures from life, etc. I'm all for that. Ultimately, it helps not just the person but all of us if the person is deranged enough to go on a shooting spree and prayer calms him down. But no Christian should ever believe they get a supernatural benefit from God for food or a job or a roof over their heads or an auto to get to work as a direct result of prayer because they won't. If it happens, it happens with the same frequency of chance as it does for any other kind of person, Hindu, Krishna, atheist, Muslim, etc.
Your post has two questions, Pleroo. I'll take them one by one:
I think all Christians, except the deranged ones, don't hear an audible voice of God talking back to them. Most get this warm fuzzy feeling in their heart which they interpret as the Holy Spirit talking back to them. They may imagine they heard a "Yes" or a "No" sometimes. They didn't of course. That was just their subconscious or their emotions talking back to them in response to some difficulty they are facing. "Should I leaven my church?" "No" their emotions says back to them so they go to their friends and say, The Holy Spirit told me I shouldn't leave." Happened to me all the time when I was a Christian. So in their minds God is really listening and answering. But He isn't, of course. It's all in their heads. That's point #1.
It doesn't have to be an audible voice. It's a clear voice in your mind and your heart. Not a vague feeling. I had a friend in college that told me God spoke to her in this way and clearly revealed the name of the man that she was to marry. She didn't know the guy or ever met him, but some time later, he walked into her life and they fell deeply in love. There is all kinds of amazing things going on in Christianity if you don't shut yourself off to the truth.
It doesn't have to be an audible voice. It's a clear voice in your mind and your heart. Not a vague feeling. I had a friend in college that told me God spoke to her in this way and clearly revealed the name of the man that she was to marry. She didn't know the guy or ever met him, but some time later, he walked into her life and they fell deeply in love. There is all kinds of amazing things going on in Christianity if you don't shut yourself off to the truth.
Rubbish...
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