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He faced unfathomable torture in dying, something most of us would avoid.
Balderdash! An old neighbour of mine suffered 4 years of 'unfathomable torture' at the hands of the Japanese in a prison camp, EVERY DAY, not just an afternoon. THAT is suffering. THAT is sacrifice. That's if you even believe that Jesus story in the first place.
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And that's why God is far above our ability to comprehend.
...and you so many of you claim to be having a 'personal relationship' with it.
You are claiming that god exists. Aside from years of lecturing and browbeating anyone and everyone about it, we know the basis of this claim - and claim it is as we all know - except you apparently. Everything is 'God'.
We know and so do you that it is Intelligent, in Your belief. Belief, Mystic. You believe this, not me. You and I know that it must be intelligent (in your hypothesis) or we humans wouldn't be.
Are we on the same page? Are you keeping up? For your god - claim to work, you have to validate this Intelligence or your claim fails and the default win goes to atheism. How many more legs do you have to deny losing before you get it?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
No, I claim nothing, I believe God exists. Are you claiming that God does NOT exist? You do not believe God exists but you are too cowardly to make it a claim so you can pretend the default is yours anyway. You are unwilling to let me refuse to make my belief a claim because you want to WIN by default. QED!
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You continue to pretend that what is argued here is anything other than OPINIONS and BELIEFS, Arq because your primary interest is in pretending that the atheist opinions and beliefs MUST be the default for everyone. The hubris is mind-boggling.
Reminder of your true objective above in bold.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
You continue to ignore, evade and dismiss the logical basis for assessing claims opinions and beliefs and try to pretend that it just My opinion, and not the basic logic of a claim and the burden of proof.
There is NO CLAIM and no burden of proof for BELIEFS, period.
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Don't have the gall to appeal to science (which has been shown to be nothing like any science that science knows of but an 'analogy' of it out in the Dark matter or whatever) when you are unable to put up any defence but to deny that you're claiming anything, ty to force misrepresentations onto me, and pull the old ad hom accusations. And don't , if you were thinking of it, claim that showing up the paucity of your case is somehow doing an ad hom on you.
You will,of course and pretend that you were never debunked or refuted or shown to be devoid of substance, reasoning or even intellectual integrity. I just trust that those looking in will remember, even if you pretend that you don't.
You tenaciously refuse to treat the science claims SEPARATELY from my spiritual BELIEFS about the science. At least Arach is willing to acknowledge the difference between the validity of the science I present versus the spiritual claims I make from them. You do not. You insist on focusing ONLY on the spiritual belief claims and pretend that invalidates the science claims. You are a fraud whose lack of knowledge of the science belies ANY of your claims of debunking that you insist on repeatedly proclaiming.
Balderdash! An old neighbour of mine suffered 4 years of 'unfathomable torture' at the hands of the Japanese in a prison camp, EVERY DAY, not just an afternoon. THAT is suffering. THAT is sacrifice. That's if you even believe that Jesus story in the first place.
Are you suggesting that your friend had love in his heart for his torturers "because they knew not what they did?" It is the retention of love despite the horrific treatment and consequences that is what defines Jesus, NOT the duration of His torture or death.
Are you suggesting that your friend had love in his heart for his torturers "because they knew not what they did?" It is the retention of love despite the horrific treatment and consequences that is what defines Jesus, NOT the duration of His torture or death.
Mystic. I don't believe the Jesus myth. The point I'm making is that, what happened to the Jesus character in the story is NOTHING compared to what some people have gone through - and are even going through as we peak.
And there is no sacrifice in 'dying' when you know that you are not going to die and you will be back in three days. If the story is true....
Mystic. I don't believe the Jesus myth. The point I'm making is that, what happened to the Jesus character in the story is NOTHING compared to what some people have gone through - and are even going through as we peak.
And there is no sacrifice in 'dying' when you know that you are not going to die and you will be back in three days. If the story is true....
If we presume the story is true, the real question is how much suffering was involved. The procession...a great deal of suffering. The crucifixion and lingering...immense suffering. And, again, if true, I don't think it's a competition to see who wins the gold medal in suffering.
I have no idea if the story is true. The evidence is scant, and based on that I have my doubts...not to mention the god part.
The illogical part of it all, at least to me, is why would a god allow that to happen to "his only begotten son"...or himself, depending on how you see the story. And this is another of those is this even logical moments in christianity. Is god a drama queen?
God works through sentient beings who are the only ones capable of identifying suffering, right, and wrong. Those states are NOT the same as just experiencing pain or causing desirable, and causing unpleasant consequences. Bacteria do not suffer.
Beg the question much? Is your god not working through bacteria when they allow you to breathe, and not drown in a sea of Mystic?
The bacteria have dominion, not you. They will be here much longer than we will.
Reminder of your true objective above in bold.
There is NO CLAIM and no burden of proof for BELIEFS, period. You tenaciously refuse to treat the science claims SEPARATELY from my spiritual BELIEFS about the science. At least Arach is willing to acknowledge the difference between the validity of the science I present versus the spiritual claims I make from them. You do not. You insist on focusing ONLY on the spiritual belief claims and pretend that invalidates the science claims. You are a fraud whose lack of knowledge of the science belies ANY of your claims of debunking that you insist on repeatedly proclaiming.
Mystic, your science claims are baseless. You have admitted that at best, your discussions revolve around unproven analogies to electromagnetic energy, which is supposed to represent an energy state that has never been measured or proven.
So you have an unproven belief and unprovable scientific thoughts. You don’t even have a scientific hypothesis, as it is not an explanation, nor an observable phenomenon.
Regardless, you have a lot of people as seeing you far less rational than they used to, including me. That may not be how you WISH to appear to others, neither does jeffie. But then we know the facts about him and right now your floating in the same boat with him.
I shall have to leave people to make their own assessments of how well my arguments stack up. I trust that they will not mistake the methods I have to use to pin Mystic down (as he is very slippery) for Jeffbase raving in fury because he is being shown wrong in his deep beliefs.
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Originally Posted by Wardendresden
He became a man. That's not necessarily a "good" idea given our history. He won by losing, also not a good idea by human standards. He faced unfathomable torture in dying, something most of us would avoid. And He forgave those killing Him, also a "stupid" move.
And that's why God is far above our ability to comprehend. We project what we think is "smart" onto His choices made on our behalf.
He who would be first shall be last and he who would be last shall be first. Definitely goes against Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forest's claim that the way to win is to "be there fustest with the mostest."
We are getting off the topic of prayer, rather. This isn't about turning a a failed Messianic attempt into a successful sacrifice or Biblequoting to validate that vindication will come in the end even if everything we claim has been shown to be without substance.
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Hebrews 11.1
No. Your agenda is to insist on atheist disinclination to accept what you state about your beliefs (which is a claim, whether you like it or not, whether you insist that it is true or not) as a 'claim' about your beliefs simply because you can continue to demand that you be disproved rather than you having to prove anything. This is where your logic is wrong because of the assumption that your beliefs are correct until disproven. If you can't see what logically dollows and what doesn't here, there is no hope for you
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There is NO CLAIM and no burden of proof for BELIEFS, period. You tenaciously refuse to treat the science claims SEPARATELY from my spiritual BELIEFS about the science. At least Arach is willing to acknowledge the difference between the validity of the science I present versus the spiritual claims I make from them. You do not. You insist on focusing ONLY on the spiritual belief claims and pretend that invalidates the science claims. You are a fraud whose lack of knowledge of the science belies ANY of your claims of debunking that you insist on repeatedly proclaiming.
If you can't see the difference between validated science and speculative beliefs about science (never mind the fantasy sciencey -sounding claims you make) there you are beyond hope. You know that you have nothing and nowhere to go, and try to shift the burden of proof and pretend that it is not your requirement to validate your stated beliefs or opinions, simply because you call them beliefs and opinions.
You are way beyond argument now and you are just trying to get out of having to admit that you have nothing. As well, of course, that having nothing leaves disbelief in what you state, in the 'valid' position. Atheism wins.
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