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Historian vs Atheist: Is Jesus A Knock-Off Of Pagan Gods?
Historian and New Testament expert Gary Habermas, Ph.D., debates a Skeptic Magazine editor on the resurrection of Jesus and the idea that his story was copied from pagan gods.
Creationists seem to be proud of their calculations that supposedly show how thermodynamics and probability prevent the chance formation of biologically useful macromolecules such as enzymes. Their "evidence" usually consists of quotations from such authors as Hubert P. Yockey, who agrees that catalytically active proteins cannot occur by chance. Yockey (1977a and b), looking at fully evolved proteins, says that their information content is too high for their chance formation.
Creationists do their own calculations to show that the chance formation of biologically useful proteins is impossible. These calculations almost always involve the erroneous assumption that each of the many amino acid positions in a protein must be filled by the one particular amino acid suitable for that position. Since there are twenty different amino acids available for each position, the chance of randomly getting a string of 200 amino acids all in the right order is (1/20)200. If you plug this expression into a calculator, it will tell you that it equals essentially zero. Thus, the creationists say, you can't get such a protein by a chance ordering of amino acids. As Duane Gish of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) put it (1976), "The time required for a single catalytically active protein molecule to arise by pure chance would be billions of times the assumed age of the earth."
But proteins, even modern highly evolved specialized proteins, are not built with that degree of specificity. What's more, many proteins show in their structure that they were built of smaller subunit sequences of amino acids (Doolittle, 1981) or they have a simple metalo-organic core that could have functioned alone as a primitive precursor of today's complex enzyme. So the creationist calculations give an answer of zero probability because the creationists make at least two major errors in their assumptions: they assume a degree of specificity that has not been shown to exist in real proteins, and they insist that newly formed proteins must be as efficient as their older and highly evolved counterparts. https://ncse.com/cej/5/2/new-proteins-without-gods-help
Historian vs Atheist: Is Jesus A Knock-Off Of Pagan Gods?
Historian and New Testament expert Gary Habermas, Ph.D., debates a Skeptic Magazine editor on the resurrection of Jesus and the idea that his story was copied from pagan gods.
"Nearly every god that mythically died and rose again--e.g. Osirus, Dionysus, Attis, and Mithra--was believed to have the power to give immortal life. This Creed was maintained by a ritual sacrament, generally developed into a mystery drama. At the bottom of the mystery drama was a perpetuation of the latest form of the primitive rite as it had been publicly performed." (Pagan Christs, J.M. Robertson, p.45)
Robertson continues: "Like Christ,and like Adonis and Attis, Osiris and Dionysus also suffer and die to rise again. To become one with them is the mystical passion of their worshippers. They are all alike in that their mysteries give them immortality. From Mithraism Christ takes the symbolic keys of heaven and hell and assumes the function of the virgin-born Saoshyant, the destroyer of the evil one. Like Mithra, Merodach,the Egyptian Khousu, he is a mediator; like Khousu, Horus and Merodach he is one of a trinity, like Horus he is joined with the Logos; and like Merodach he is associated with a holy spirit, one of whose symbol is fire. In fundamentals, Christianity is but paganism reshaped."(Pagan Christs, Robertson pp.52-53)
"Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. The Greek mind, dying, came to a transmigrated life in the theology and liturgy of the church; the Greek language having reigned for centuries over philosophy, became the vehicle of Christian literature and ritual;the Greek mysteries passed down into the impressive mystery of the mass. Other pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist result. From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity, the last judgement and a personal immortality of reward and punishment; from Egypt the adoration of the mother and child, and the mystic philosophy that made Neoplatonism and Gnosticism, and obscured the Christian creed; there too, Christian monasticism would find it's exemplars and it's source. From Phrygia came the worship of the Great Mother; from Syria the Resurrection drama of Adonis; from Thrace, perhaps, the cult of Dionysus, the dying and saving god. From Persia came millenarianism, the Darkness and the Light; already in the Fourth Gospel Christ is the `Light shining in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.' The Mithraic ritual so closely resembled the eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass that Christian fathers charged the Devil with inventing these similarities to mislead frail minds. Christianity was the last great creation of the pagan world." (The Story of Civilization vol.3, "Caesar and Christ" by Will Durant, p.595).
Hi Nonsense. Nice! I appreciate you providing something of substance for me to evaluate instead of insults.
It's an obviously biased source you referenced (and old 1985), but you'd likely say the same about the video I posted. That's fair. I'll do some research on the substance of the NCSE claims and get back to you.
Thanks again.
Quote:
"The National Center for Science Education acts as a central information and resource clearinghouse, and helps to coordinate the activities of people fighting creationists."
[This 2nd video was heavily edited and impossible to view without bias. Trying to find the original unedited debate video, or better yet, the most current debate on this subject that I can find. No need to go back to 80s and 90's for info.]
Historian vs Atheist: Is Jesus A Knock-Off Of Pagan Gods?
Historian and New Testament expert Gary Habermas, Ph.D., debates a Skeptic Magazine editor on the resurrection of Jesus and the idea that his story was copied from pagan gods.
For what it's worth, I found that debate interesting.
I have a few questions though, like if Jesus was risen then why does he keep 'appearing'? He was alive wasn't he? And as I've said before, being alive after his crucifixion does not equate to resurrection. It equates to failed execution.
Go Dawkins! SMASH that creationist baffoon!! Wipe the floor with that dolt! Blood!!! Creation vs Evolution Debate: Richard Dawkins vs John Lennox at Cambridge
Hi Nonsense. Nice! I appreciate you providing something of substance for me to evaluate instead of insults.
It's an obviously biased source you referenced (and old 1985), but you'd likely say the same about the video I posted. That's fair. I'll do some research on the substance of the NCSE claims and get back to you.
Thanks again.
I'm currently watching a this 2001 debate between a Eugenie Scott (NCSE) vs William Demsky (Discovery Inst.):
[This 2nd video was heavily edited and impossible to view without bias. Trying to find the original unedited debate video, or better yet, the most current debate on this subject that I can find. No need to go back to 80s and 90's for info.]
I have been encouraging you to post actual information, rather than posturing and laying down unsupported challenges for some time now.
But let's dig a bit deeper into the subject of pagan beliefs and practices, shall we?
"Earliest Israel was not monotheistic but henotheistic; worshipping only one God themselves the Israelites did not deny the existence of other gods for other nations" (Funk and Wagnalls New Encyclopedia; "Judaism" p.125).
Henotheism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Henotheism (Greek ??a? ?e?? henas theos "one god") is the belief in and worship of a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities that may also be served. The term was originally coined by Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling (1775–1854) to depict early stages of monotheism. Max Müller (1823–1900), a German philologist and orientalist, brought the term into wider usage.[1] Müller made the term central to his criticism of Western theological and religious exceptionalism (relative to Eastern religions), focusing on a cultural dogma which held "monotheism" to be both fundamentally well defined and inherently superior to differing conceptions of God.
Canaanite religion and early Judaism
Rabbinical Judaism as it developed in Late Antiquity is emphatically monotheistic, but its predecessor, the various schools of Hellenistic Judaism and Second Temple Judaism, [b]and especially the cult of YHWH as it was practiced in ancient Israel and Judah during the 8th and 7th centuries BC, have been described as henotheistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
History of the Jews, by Simon Dubnov
"Between the two extremes of animistic polytheism and absolute monotheism there is an intermediate stage of `henotheism'--that is, the recognition by each tribe of a peculiar divinity, its patron and the guardian of its destiny, whose worship was often dovetailed with the cult of the local deities personifying the forces of nature. The Israelites shared with other Semitic tribes the idea of a supreme being who held
sway over nature and man. This supreme being was known as El or Elohim (corresponding to the Babylonian Illu or Ila), a name in which the concept of force was implicit, and which was perpetuated in the names of both Israel itself and such individuals as Eleazar and Elijah. From its association with Babylonian culture the Hebrew Israelite tribe derived the concept of primordial chaos, the creation of the world and man, and the flood, which were prevalent in the Near East and which eventually emerged in modified form as the cosmology of the book of Genesis. But these nomads and semi-nomads could not absorb the Babylonian religion whose complex polytheism was closely associated with conditions of urban life and of organized rule.
In Babylonia every city had a deity and a temple of its own; and the prince or regent of that city was looked on simply as the representative (priest) of its particular deity. The ungoverned Canaanite life of the Israelites gave birth to simpler religious ideas, which contained elements of a natural monotheism not
connected to any specific place or people. It was only on the eve of the conquest of Canaan, when the several Israelite tribes combined to form a single nation, that the concept of a particular tribal deity, originally identified with Mt. Sinai, became dominant. This deity, under the name of Yahweh, became
the God of the Israelites--their patron, their sovereign ruler, and the symbol of their unity " (History of the Jews, pp.99-100, by Simon Dubnov). **Note: Simon Dubnov, a Russian Jew who died in 1941 is widely considered to be the leading Jewish historian of the Twentieth Century).
So, both modern historians and Jewish scholars acknowledge that the early Jews accepted the existence of other gods. PAGAN GODS!
The evidence of this fact is right there in the pages of the Bible.
Deut.33
[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
[2] And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Josh.24
[15] "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
The Jewish nation did not become emphatically monotheistic until after the Babylonian captivity, when they were exposed to monotheistic Persian Zoroastrian beliefs. Zoroaster (Zarathustra), who lived during the second millennium BC, proclaimed that there is only one God of all creation, the Wise Lord Ahura Mazda. Cyrus the Great worshipped Ahura Mazda. Cyrus was greatly admired by the Jewish people, who referred to Cyrus as their SHEPHERD, and the anointed of God.
Isa,44:
[28] That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa.45
[1] Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
After the Babylonian captivity the Jewish nation was solidly monotheistic.
Many of the prominent beliefs common to Christianity are actually derived from Persian beliefs.
"Although a definite borrowing is still impossible to prove, the resemblances between Zoroastrianism and Judaism are numerous and probably took shape during the exile. First of all the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, the enemy of God. Secondly,the figure of the Messiah, originally a future king of Israel who would save his people from oppression evolved,in Deutro-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshyant(Savior). Thirdly, the entities that came to surround Yahweh, such as His wisdom and His spirit are comparable to the arch angels escorting Ahura Mazda; other points of comparison include the doctrine of the millenia; the Last Judgement; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the resurrection, the final transformation of the Earth; paradise of Heaven on Earth or in Heaven. Christianity seems to owe many features to Iran over and above those inherited from Judaism. Among others are probably the belief in guardian angels, resurrection and the heavenly journey of the soul."(Encyclopedia Americana,"Zoroastrianism" pp.813-815).
In fact, the very NOTION of a coming savior of humanity is derived from the Persian concept of the impending arrival of the Saoshyant.
Wikipedia
Saoshyant
Saoshyant (Avestan: Saoš´iia?t?) is the Avestan language expression that literally means "one who brings benefit", and which is used in several different ways in Zoroastrian scripture and tradition. In particular, the expression is the proper name of the Saoshyant, an eschatological saviour figure who bring about Frashokereti, the final renovation of the world in which evil is finally destroyed. The term was contracted to 'Soshans' in Zoroastrian tradition, and came to apply to three saviour figures that progressively bring about the final renovation.
In tradition
Those medieval works of Zoroastrian tradition envision three future saviours, each of them a 'Soshans'/Saoshyant, with one for the end of each thousand-year period that comprise the last 3,000 years of the world (these three millennia follow the 'millennium of Zoroaster'). According to the tradition (found e.g. in the Jamasp Namag), the first Saoshyant will be named (H)Ushedar, the second (H)Ushedarmah and the third will again be the Saoshyant, who will lead humanity in the final battle against evil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saoshyant
Among the non Jewish Hellenistic people of the middle east, a savior, a messiah who would overthrow their bondage to the Roman empire, was desperately expected to appear "soon."
So when to story of the risen Jesus was brought to the non Jewish peoples of the middle east, by people like Paul, the story found favor. Because it conformed to their PAGAN belief system. The Jews of Palestine however, the very people in the best position to know what ACTUALLY occurred, never widely accepted the story of the resurrected Jesus, and the claim that Jesus represented the arrival of the messiah. And they don't accept it to this day!
Don't you even realise why 'Bible scholars' are Bible scholars??
LOL! Gary Habermas. The guy that bases his whole argument on the gospels being true!
Ummm .... Iwas, Rafius makes a valid point.
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