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Pliny the Younger does NOT mention Jesus. He mentions a messiah that probably is a Jesus, but he does not tell us what the Christians he interviewed believed about this Jesus, other than he was a god or worshiped as one. But there were many different beliefs about Jesus, such as he was a divine being, or a spirit who appeared to be a man.
Phlegon does not mention Jesus. He talks about an earthquake in Turkey in 29 AD, and a solar eclipse (which can NOT happen at Passover).
We do not know what Thallus said other than he talked about a solar eclipse (which again can NOT happen at Passover). We do not know if he was talking about Jesus, only that Africanus thought he was. And there is good evidence Thallus was writing a shorter version of the event Phlegon wrote about.
Bar Serapion, did he write about Jesus? We do not know. But if he did, was he writing about the Jesus portrayed in the gospels? If so, then is account is based on the Bible, and therefore not independent.
Tacitus may have wrote about Jesus, but we do not know where he got his information from. His good friend was Pliny the Younger, so he could have got the information from him, who got his information from the Christians themselves. So again, not independent.
Another problem with the Tacitus account is that no one mentions it for centuries, even though the early Christians were arguing against people who thought Jesus did not exist as a man. Yet another problem is that the earliest manuscript we have talks about ChrEstians, not ChrIstians, and you can not derive ChrEstians from Christus. So there is good evidence Tacitus is a later interpolation.
The Talmud says Jesus was stoned to death in Pella, along with his 5 disciples, and that this happened before 70 BC. So not gospel Jesus.
Josephus and the Testimonium Flavianum is probably a complete interpolation, as it is based on Luke's Road to Emmaus passage (Goldberg), uses words as Eusebius used them (Olson), and the grammar is completely different (Hopper).
Josephus and the James passage uses strange grammar, and is probably a later marginal note added by accident.
Celsus is responding to Christian claims.
Seutonius does not talk about Jesus, only Christians; and a person with the Greek name Chrestus.
So out of your list, you have ONE possible mention, Tacitus.
And this is why there must be innocent men in prison, because the above is how you investigate claims, by looking at ALL the evidence, and how reliable it is. Wallace failed, and the fact that you rely on Wallace means you fail as well.
Thanks for the info but I would appreciate links or citations to review. If you don't provide source references I can't assess the quality of the source of the information. Sorry, nothing personal. I don't take anyone's opinions at face value without doing my own research to verify.
Pliny - Pliny's letters.
Phlegon - Eusebius (Chronicles Book 2) quotes Phlegon.
Indeed Phlegon, who is an excellent calculator of olympiads, also writes about this, in his 13th book writing thus: "However in the fourth year of the 202nd olympiad*, an eclipse of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour (noon) day turned into dark night, so that the stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings of the city of Nicaea."
Here is Phlegon's eclipse, going through Bithynia at noon.
Tacitus - Tacitus, with everything the early Christians wrote while NOT mentioning the passage in Tacitus.
Josephus - Olson, Goldberg, Hopper.
The Talmud - the Talmud.
* 32 AD. This is the only detail that almost agrees with the gospels, but is probably a correction or an error (as the Greek for 1 and 4 at that time was almost identical).
Here you are. Not that it will do much good in your case.
JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)
The famous Testamonium Flavianum is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
...the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the Jew Josephus (who refused to call anyone "messiah"). The T.F. comes in several versions of various ages. The T.F. was not mentioned by Origen when he reviewed Josephus - Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era. The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
The other tiny passage in Josephus refer to Jesus, son of Damneus. In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
TACITUS (c.112CE)
Roughly 80 years after the alleged events Tacitus allegedly wrote a passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
This passage is paraphrased by Sulpicius Severus in the 5th century without attributing it to Tacitus, and may have been inserted back into Tacitus from this work.
This evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records - but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.). So, this passage is NOT evidence for Jesus. It's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.
PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)
About 80 years after the alleged events, Pliny referred to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events. So, Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus, just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
SUETONIUS (c.115CE)
Roughly 80-90 years after the alleged Gospel events, Suetonius refers to a "Chrestus" who stirred the Jews to trouble in Rome during Claudius' time, but this "Chrestus" is a Greek name (from "useful"), and is also a mystic name for an initiate, it is not the same as "Christos". This Chrestus was apparently active in Rome, Jesus never was. So, this passage is not evidence for Jesus, it's nothing to do with Jesus It's evidence for Christians grasping at straws.
IGNATIUS (107CE? 130-170CE?)
The letters of Ignatius are traditionally dated to c.107, yet:
*it is not clear if he really existed, his story is suspicious,
* his letters are notoriously corrupt and in 2 versions,
* it is probable that his letters were later forgeries,
* he mentions only a tiny few items about Jesus.
So, Ignatius is no evidence for Jesus himself. At BEST it is 2nd century evidence to a few beliefs about Jesus.
THALLUS (date unknown)
We have NO certain evidence when Thallus lived or wrote, there are NONE of Thallus' works extant. What we DO have is a 9th century reference by George Syncellus who quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, who, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion, wrote: "Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse".
But..there is NO evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events at all, as there WAS an eclipse in 29. This suggests he merely referred to a known eclipse, but that LATER Christians MIS-interpreted his comment to mean their darkness. (Also note the supposed reference to Thallus in Eusebius is a false reading.) So, Thallus is no evidence for Jesus at all, merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.
PHLEGON (c.140)
Phlegon wrote during the 140s - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon actually said anything about Gospel events, he was merely talking about an eclipse (they DO happen) which LATER Christians argued was the "darkness" in their stories. So, Phlegon is no evidence for Jesus at all - merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.
VALENTINUS (c.140CE)
In mid 2nd century the GNOSTIC Valentinus almost became Bishop of Rome, but:
* he was several generations after the alleged events,
* he wrote of an esoteric, Gnostic Jesus and Christ,
* he mentioned no historical details about Jesus.
So,
Valentinus is no evidence for a historical Jesus.
POLYCARP (c.155CE)
Polycarp wrote in mid 2nd century, but :
* he is several generations after the alleged events,
* he gives many sayings of Jesus (some of which do NOT match the Gospels),
* he does NOT name any evangelist or Gospel.
So, Polycarp knew sayings of Jesus but provides no actual evidence for a historical Jesus.
LUCIAN (c.170CE)
Nearly one-and-a-half CENTURIES after the alleged events, Lucian satirised Christians, but :
* this was several generations later,
* Lucian does NOT even mention Jesus or Christ by name.
So, Lucian is no evidence for a historical Jesus, merely late 2nd century lampooning of Christians.
GALEN (late 2nd C.)
Late 2nd century, Galen makes a few references to Christians, and briefly to Christ.
This is far too late to be evidence for Jesus.
TALMUD (3rd C. and later)
There are some possible references in the Talmud, but:
* these references are from 3rd century or later, and seem to be (unfriendly) Jewish responses to Christian claims.
* the references are highly variant, have many cryptic names for Jesus, and very different to the Gospel stories (e.g. one story has "Jesus" born about 100BC.)
So, the Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus. The Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories.
Oh, please spare us the 'you are ganging up on us' apologetic. Do you think that 10 years years ago it wasn't the other way around? if you had a decent argument, you could wipe the floor with a dozen atheists.
This of course represents the conclusion that is to be drawn from these various debates. If believers actually had a well founded, logical, well documented fact based case to present, then non beliers would have long ago been routed and dispersed. Indeed, if believers had a well founded, logical, well documented fact based case then non believers would be few and far between. What we have witnessed again and again, thousands of times in fact, is a display of the best arguments that believers can make being utterly eviscerated. It has gotten to the point where believers willing to engage in an apologetics defence of their beliefs have become scarce. Meanwhile we non believers are waiting in ever growing packs to eviscerate the poor foolishly unprepared religious newbies who stumble in to the forum, direct from church service, that have been indoctrinated into supposing that their beliefs are beyond challenge, but who are only armed with their one sided indoctrination, and have absolutely no experience at all with the process of actually being exposed to well founded, logical, well documented fact based challenges to their beliefs.
So, I declare the religious wars to be over. The verdict is in. The verdict has been in for some time in fact. Believers lost BADLY.
Something is true. There are distinct concrete reasons why things are the way they are. But that truth is not going to be found in make believe. It's time to move on from make believe.
If all my arguments are shot down by 10 to 1, I’d start thinking something might be wrong with me.
It's part of the whole self -deception methodology of Christian apologetics. If 100 people say that one is wrong, they don't wonder 'Could they be right?' instead they think: "I am being Persecuted".
Oh, please spare us the 'you are ganging up on us' apologetic. Do you think that 10 years years ago it wasn't the other way around? if you had a decent argument, you could wipe the floor with a dozen atheists.
What amazes me is that they have a god who is all powerful, and their human savior withstood a crucifixion. And out little friend is whining about being ganged up on in a forum.
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I was pulling you on your legs.
spare us the 'you are ganging up on us' apologetic. Do you think that 10 years years ago it wasn't the other way around? if you had a decent argument, you could wipe the floor with a dozen atheists.
