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humans are capable of discerning what is valid. what is valid for one person may not be valid for another. what is evidence for one person may not be evidence for another person. what is a reliable source for one person, may not be for another person.
it is overly simplistic thinking, and not rational or logical, to say if something is not valid for you, then it is "not true" and "made up."
since black and white thinking is not logical, not rational, it constricts and limits the cognitive range a person has in their ability to think, analyze, discuss, understand, experience, consider, and learn. It is a rigid and closed system. for anyone interested, read up on problems with black and white thinking.
"evidence" also includes perceptions, wisdom, intuitive knowing, personal experience, knowledge, study, insights. To dismiss or ignore those, to fail to take those into account in determining what is valid, shows (in my view) a lack of both common sense and wisdom.
this is the religion and spirituality forum, and the thread is on "psychic, tarot, and like experiences." in this arena there is a wide range of experiences, and what people consider valid varies from person to person. to demand or claim "what is true" is like claiming or demanding evidence about what music is true, what food is true, what art is true.
can you see how it is problematic to make the irrational leap from "not understanding" "not agreeing"
to "I don't believe you" "not true" "make believe" "you are making it up"
and in this case the added bizarreness of "you stand accused"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
humans are capable of discerning what is valid. what is valid for one person may not be valid for another. what is evidence for one person may not be evidence for another person. what is a reliable source for one person, may not be for another person.
Humans are capable of discerning what is valid, yes. Within the limits of our limited senses, at least. The Greek philosopher Leucippus theorized that matter is made up of tiny indivisible building blocks he referred to as atomos. He had no direct evidence to support his theory however, because he did not have the technology necessary to prove his claims. So he taught an idea that would eventually prove to be founded on fact, but was mostly based on assumption. Because it was entirely made up and declared to be true. Still, Leucippus is admired for his flawed incite.
It would take several thousand years yet to reach the point of having sufficient technology to determine whether Leucippus was on the right track. And even with improved technology, modern science got it wrong initially. Because what more modern scientists originally thought were examples of the individual building blocks, Leucippus' "atomos, turned out to be dividable after all, into protons, neutrons and electrons. Modern science now uses the term "quantum" to describe the smallest unique entities of matter/energy.
The point is, making up answers and declaring them to be true has it's drawbacks, even if one happens to be on the right track. If one happens to be totally off base, then they are spouting utter nonsense. Utter nonsense has no value in the cause of increasing knowledge at all. Except perhaps as an example of what utter nonsense looks like, and why one should be careful about swallowing it down without question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
it is overly simplistic thinking, and not rational or logical, to say if something is not valid for you, then it is "not true" and "made up."
since black and white thinking is not logical, not rational, it constricts and limits the cognitive range a person has in their ability to think, analyze, discuss, understand, experience, consider, and learn. It is a rigid and closed system. for anyone interested, read up on problems with black and white thinking.
Valid to me means something based on physical evidence. Valid to you appears to mean that which you conjure up your head or which you find to be personally compelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
"evidence" also includes perceptions, wisdom, intuitive knowing, personal experience, knowledge, insights. To dismiss or ignore those, to fail to take those into account in determining what is valid, shows (in my view) a lack of both common sense and wisdom.
At first glance the "evidence" seems to indicate that the Earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun and stars revolve around the Earth. "Evidence" needs to be carefully evaluated. For centuries the Earth centric universe was declared to be official doctrine by the Catholic church. And woe to those who sought to dispute it.
But we live in more enlightened times now. If someone is spouting beliefs and claims that can be easily contradicted by an appeal to the facts, reason and knowledge, point out exactly WHY they are fos, and allow them to clarify. If they can make a case that is more credible then the case for dismissing their claims, then either accept their claims as proven, or return to the drawing board. If they CANNOT make a case that is more credible then the case for dismissing their claims, then continue to point out exactly why they are fos in complete detail. Assuming that this can be done without being burned at the stake by the ignorant masses, of course. In which case... never mind!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
this is the religion and spirituality forum, and the thread is on "psychic, tarot, and like experiences." in this arena there is a wide range of experiences, and what people consider valid varies from person to person. to demand or claim "what is true" is like claiming or demanding evidence about what music is true, what food is true, what art is true.
The useful nature of a forum like this is the ability to compare claims, and to subject them to reason, logic, and a full cross section of the facts. Not the uncontested spread of nonsense like a disease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
can you see how it is problematic to make the irrational leap from "not understanding" "not agreeing"
to "I don't believe you" "you are making it up."
and in this case the added bizarreness of "you stand accused"
Can you see how problematic it is to simply swallow down the nonsense of others without even subjecting their claims to a test of reason, logic and factual accuracy?
I started the thread. I didn't ask for anyone to convince anyone else about the validity or tarot or psychics. I just asked for experiences.
Have to admit, phetoroi, I was wondering how long before you would again remind everyone what you asked for...
Interesting if not funny how these threads tend to veer, sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much, but I always put some value in how some threads endure while others don't. Maybe the "off-topic" comments are something like commercials while you wait for your favorite program to resume?
Back to your request, I posted some of my experiences for what they are worth.
Otherwise I have to admit it's hard sometimes for me to read about other experiences because I always have a rather septic..., I mean skeptic attitude about what is reported by someone else vs what I might have observed myself if I were there. That or what else is not being reported that no one else can know.
One thing for sure. Experiences that make one wonder about the possibility of supernatural phenomena are always interesting one way or another. What are we ultimately to make of the most "convincing" experiences otherwise hard to explain? The answer to that question is what I think tends to define much in the way of our differences, "spiritual" people vs those less inclined. Again for what any of that is worth.
I'm here because I often find you and your comments above average interesting to consider and entertain. Thanks for this thread too and your patience when comments like mine disappoint. Sincerely.
this is not a court of law.
it is a thread in the religion and spirituality forum where people are asked to share their experiences on "psychics, tarot, and the like."
whether a person finds an experience meaningful, is determined by that person.
not by anyone else.
it is not about convincing anyone else of anything. because that is utterly irrelevant. and unnecessary.
the most "reasonable and productive approach" for me is recognizing the utter folly of claiming there is such a thing as "establishing the truth" when it comes to music, food, art, religion, spirituality, courage, love, integrity, and well, truth.
True again and no doubt sometimes I pay closer attention to the comment I'm reading, whatever it may be about, instead of the title of the thread. If there is a better thread better suited to the comments we've been exchanging, it might be this one...
Not a court of law. Of course not. The point is there is a better way to arrive at what judgement we should about most things of controversial nature. Even the above referenced thread is "flawed" according to some because it really isn't truly moderated either. Not objectively anyway, but again the effort is simply to find a way to intelligently exchange and maybe even reconcile alternative opinion about the truth.
In any case, your recent comments are not complying with the OP's wishes either, so I guess we ought to either cough up those experiences or move on already...
humans are capable of discerning what is valid. what is valid for one person may not be valid for another. what is evidence for one person may not be evidence for another person. what is a reliable source for one person, may not be for another person.
it is overly simplistic thinking, and not rational or logical, to say if something is not valid for you, then it is "not true" and "made up."
since black and white thinking is not logical, not rational, it constricts and limits the cognitive range a person has in their ability to think, analyze, discuss, understand, experience, consider, and learn. It is a rigid and closed system. for anyone interested, read up on problems with black and white thinking.
"evidence" also includes perceptions, wisdom, intuitive knowing, personal experience, knowledge, study, insights. To dismiss or ignore those, to fail to take those into account in determining what is valid, shows (in my view) a lack of both common sense and wisdom.
this is the religion and spirituality forum, and the thread is on "psychic, tarot, and like experiences." in this arena there is a wide range of experiences, and what people consider valid varies from person to person. to demand or claim "what is true" is like claiming or demanding evidence about what music is true, what food is true, what art is true.
can you see how it is problematic to make the irrational leap from "not understanding" "not agreeing"
to "I don't believe you" "not true" "make believe" "you are making it up"
and in this case the added bizarreness of "you stand accused"
Humans are capable of discerning what is valid, yes. Within the limits of our limited senses, at least. The Greek philosopher Leucippus theorized that matter is made up of tiny indivisible building blocks he referred to as atomos. He had no direct evidence to support his theory however, because he did not have the technology necessary to prove his claims. So he taught an idea that would eventually prove to be founded on fact, but was mostly based on assumption. Because it was entirely made up and declared to be true. Still, Leucippus is admired for his flawed incite.
It would take several thousand years yet to reach the point of having sufficient technology to determine whether Leucippus was on the right track. And even with improved technology, modern science got it wrong initially. Because what more modern scientists originally thought were examples of the individual building blocks, Leucippus' "atomos, turned out to be dividable after all, into protons, neutrons and electrons. Modern science now uses the term "quantum" to describe the smallest unique entities of matter/energy.
The point is, making up answers and declaring them to be true has it's drawbacks, even if one happens to be on the right track. If one happens to be totally off base, then they are spouting utter nonsense. Utter nonsense has no value in the cause of increasing knowledge at all. Except perhaps as an example of what utter nonsense looks like, and why one should be careful about swallowing it down without question.
Valid to me means something based on physical evidence. Valid to you appears to mean that which you conjure up your head or which you find to be personally compelling.
At first glance the "evidence" seems to indicate that the Earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun and stars revolve around the Earth. "Evidence" needs to be carefully evaluated. For centuries the Earth centric universe was declared to be official doctrine by the Catholic church. And woe to those who sought to dispute it.
But we live in more enlightened times now. If someone is spouting beliefs and claims that can be easily contradicted by an appeal to the facts, reason and knowledge, point out exactly WHY they are fos, and allow them to clarify. If they can make a case that is more credible then the case for dismissing their claims, then either accept their claims as proven, or return to the drawing board. If they CANNOT make a case that is more credible then the case for dismissing their claims, then continue to point out exactly why they are fos in complete detail. Assuming that this can be done without being burned at the stake by the ignorant masses, of course. In which case... never mind!
The useful nature of a forum like this is the ability to compare claims, and to subject them to reason, logic, and a full cross section of the facts. Not the uncontested spread of nonsense like a disease.
Can you see how problematic it is to simply swallow down the nonsense of others without even subjecting their claims to a test of reason, logic and factual accuracy?
when someone tells others "they are fos"
it shows they are not capable of rational conversation.
it demonstrates a thought process that is not logical, reasonable, or rational.
effectively disqualifying themselves from having credibility.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-04-2019 at 09:15 PM..
when someone tells others "they are fos"
it shows they are not capable of rational conversation.
it demonstrates a thought process that is not logical, reasonable, or rational.
effectively disqualifying themselves from having credibility.
If we take the flat earther's as one possible example, when they lay out their claims for a flat Earth, claims which have been discredited for centuries, are they being logical, reasonable, and rational? Or are they being flat out silly?
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 09-05-2019 at 01:57 AM..
If we take the flat earther's as one possible example, when they lay out their claims for a flat Earth, claims which have been discredited for centuries, are they being logical, reasonable, and rational? Or are they being flat out silly?
You clever devil you! GFY! ..................... (God Forgives You)
If we take the flat earther's as one possible example, when they lay out their claims for a flat Earth, claims which have been discredited for centuries, are they being logical, reasonable, and rational? Or are they being flat out silly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You clever devil you! GFY! ..................... (God Forgives You)
I just made arrangements to meet my WTC "escape-mate" for lunch on the 11th. We usually meet at a restaurant across the street from the new age-y shop where they do the readings. We will probably go across the street and get one after lunch. Will let you know if anything interesting comes of it.
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GFY! ..................... (God Forgives You)
