Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't know enough about kosher foods to know the in and outs, but I would assume these would be known things, correct? In other words, they wouldn't serve certain combinations or at certain times (They could, literally just say they are closed at this time, and problem solved here)
If I am a restaurant and am open, but refuse to serve meat during one week in the summer, can someone force me to serve meat? I have it in the back, but I am invoking a religious sensibility. What if (and this is within Jewish law) I refuse to sell it TO A JEW, but I will serve it to a non-Jew. Can a Jew force my hand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
As far as turning people away, why would they do so? Because they are gay? Because they are Muslim or atheist? If so, then that is clearly discrimination.
Nope, none of those. If a Jewish person is under a religious banning-proclamation so businesses are forbidden to work with him, then he can be turned away. Can government force the business to do business with someone the religion forbids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
You can certainly make rules regarding your business, as far as what foods you serve and during what times, but when you get into refusing services, you are discriminating.
No offense, but that sounds like a blurry line in the making. I will serve you, just not at your wedding, so it is a matter of time, not person?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
Lewd imagery and hate speech will never be "community based".
Actually, all issues subject to the Miller test are based on community standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
If you refuse to make a nazi cake, no one will bat an eye. Refuse to print a shirt with nude women on it, no one will bat an eye. Even comparing this kind of thing to refusing to serve a gay person/couple is apples and oranges. We have laws regarding these things.
The question isn't about refusing to serve a gay person, but to put on it something as offensive to the religious sensibility as a naked woman or a swastika. There are some bakers who will make a distinction between a neutral and a custom cake. But even a neutral cake might be a problem if it is for an event (note, not a person) that is anathema.
I am protestant, though I am more of a Christian heretic, the "fundies" here also not like me, being "hated" (one should not speak about hate only because one disagrees) by both infidels and traditionalists is a good thing, the Bible warns us not to please all people.
BTW in Germany and vast parts of Western Europe we will experience a cultural backlash soon due to the influx of Muslim immigration. What you consider progress existed already in the Roman Empire, "that which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which will be done: and there is nothing new under the sun", as Solomon said.
No. When very many people hate you, you ought to do some serious contemplation about why. If there are a lot of people hating you, chances are...it's you that's causing the problem.
The Muslim immigration issue you speak of has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss that, start a different thread, perhaps in a different part of the forum.
Awesome, thank you. The site keeps freezing on me for some reason (on my phone), but from what I have gotten to read, it seems like they are saying that you can serve something like a gay wedding (they used frankincense and pagan worship as the example), even though it is forbidden, you can sell the item, as long as you aren't "enabling"?? Is that correct? I am going to try and pull up on my computer here in a minute, see if I can finish reading. Seems to say you can sell things, as long as you aren't "endorsing" it. I guess that can be up for interpretation as to what endorsing is though...
Awesome, thank you. The site keeps freezing on me for some reason (on my phone), but from what I have gotten to read, it seems like they are saying that you can serve something like a gay wedding (they used frankincense and pagan worship as the example), even though it is forbidden, you can sell the item, as long as you aren't "enabling"?? Is that correct? I am going to try and pull up on my computer here in a minute, see if I can finish reading. Seems to say you can sell things, as long as you aren't "endorsing" it. I guess that can be up for interpretation as to what endorsing is though...
Doesn't change my stance whatsoever though.
Some of that is correct but the issue is much more complex with variables that need to be considered on a case by case basis. What that means is that, in some cases, the pieces will fall into place to forbid service. In those cases, can regulation force the hand of the religious baker?
But there is more to food's kosher status than ingredients. A kosher food purveyor could refuse to serve food in certain combinations, or at certain times, even though this is food otherwise served. In fact, a kosher food establishment could even refuse to serve to a particular PERSON as part of its religious identity. So if these are equivalent applications of religious identity, where does regulation stop?
But the standards are community based. What is not acceptable in one place might be elsewhere.
So instead, each individual gets to make up a standard for his own religion? In other words, you move the goal posts all the time. One of the purposes of secular law is an attempt to make things equal for all.
Suppose an employer of a few Muslims rightfully respected their fasting at Ramadan. But then the leader of the Muslim employees states that the very appearance of food in the workplace during those days is an affront to their religious beliefs. Should the employer require all his other employees to keep their lunches hidden and only eat them outside when not in the presence of Muslims? Accommodation is based on the recognition that rules and procedures that apply equally to everyone do not affect everyone in equal manner, yet they cannot be used to force inequity on one group by another.
Having a handicap stall in the bathroom does not inequitably impact anyone else. Allowing prayer time in a separate room does not inequitably affect anyone else. But refusal to work alongside a homosexual DOES inequitably affect others.
Quote:
Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. famously said "no one is free until we are all free." This idea, profound in its simplicity, finds company among famous aphorisms in the Jewish textual tradition—the biblical command to "love your neighbor as yourself," and Hillel the Elder's famous principle, "that which is hateful to you do not do to your neighbors.”
These ideas rely on, and are deepened by the others: you not only must love, you must not do what another hates. You must not do what another hates and you must know your freedom is bound up in your neighbor's—no matter how comfortable you are. These ethical realities and complexities are the focus of mussar, the Jewish ethical tradition.
The invitation of mussar is to be mindful and respectful of the burdens on others–nearly the same invitation King made through this leadership in the civil rights movement. At its most basic, an anti-racist commitment is one that promises equality and dignity, honors our interconnectedness, and contains a commitment to an ongoing process of honest self-reflection. This is the spiritual obligation of Judaism; mussar is one of the Jewish paths towards it.
Hence, Jew, Muslim, or Christian, if the "religious rules" you employ are inequitable for some, they are in effect, inequitable for all. So if you wish to sell a certain kind of Kosher food do so--but sell it to all. If the vendor next door has a different kind of Kosher food, fine--but sell it to all---Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and, yes, homosexuals. That is mussar--virtue-based ethics rather than rule based. And Jews have argued in its favor for over 1000 years.
In the tenth century The Book of Beliefs and Opinions by Rabbi Saadiah Gaon, was penned in what is now Iraq, and the first Mussar book, Duties of the Heart, was written by Rabbi Bahya Ibn Pakudah in 11th-century Spain.
The majority of Jews in America do NOT hold to "rule based law" as NYJew does . And poorer in spirit is he as are the fundamentalists of every religion in the world relying on "rule based laws."
If I am a restaurant and am open, but refuse to serve meat during one week in the summer, can someone force me to serve meat? I have it in the back, but I am invoking a religious sensibility. What if (and this is within Jewish law) I refuse to sell it TO A JEW, but I will serve it to a non-Jew. Can a Jew force my hand?
You would just take meat off of the menu for that week, no forcing involved.
As for the 2nd part, in theory, yes. If you are serving an item, it should be available to those who wish to purchase it. It isn't your job to police what other Jews eat, for instance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Nope, none of those. If a Jewish person is under a religious banning-proclamation so businesses are forbidden to work with him, then he can be turned away. Can government force the business to do business with someone the religion forbids?
Not sure, as I don't really know what you mean here, to be honest. Unless the person is somehow banned from the business, I see no non-discriminatory reason to turn them away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
No offense, but that sounds like a blurry line in the making. I will serve you, just not at your wedding, so it is a matter of time, not person?
But it really isn't. Every business has rules, menus, or whatever. No one is asking a business to make a dish they don't already make, or sell an item they don't already have. No one is asking businesses to serve at gay weddings, either. In the case of Kim Davis, she was merely asked to do her job. In the case of the baker, they were asked to make a cake, not participate in the wedding or endorse it. The baker already makes wedding cakes, who it is sold to is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosends
Actually, all issues subject to the Miller test are based on community standards.
The question isn't about refusing to serve a gay person, but to put on it something as offensive to the religious sensibility as a naked woman or a swastika. There are some bakers who will make a distinction between a neutral and a custom cake. But even a neutral cake might be a problem if it is for an event (note, not a person) that is anathema.
Naked people and swastikas aren't just offensive to the religious. They are also things no one would ever be forced to put on a cake, shirt, website, or anything else. I am positive, from what I read, the bakers were not asked to make a custom cake celebrating being gay, or anything of the sort. Simply a wedding cake like they make on a weekly basis already.
The issue of what a business can be forced to do via regulation, and not via the market place is a tough one. Can a kosher caterer be forced to serve non-kosher food
Clearly not. If non-kosher food is not among the list of things they offer, then they cannot be forced to make it. This is very different from deciding what to serve based upon who the customer is.
Quote:
or can it be driven by theological demands? If it can limit itself on one level, can it then claim that the same religious schema forbids it from creating content essential to idolatry? Then, what about content which enables (or condones, as this is a potential problem in Judaism) violation of other religious law?
If you can do this in a non-discriminatory manner, then yes. There are many nuances inherent in your statement.
Quote:
What if the material violates civil law (make me a meal with a near extinct species, the cooking of which is illegal).
Clearly not. If the caterer were to offer white rhino burgers garnished with tiger penis, that is a violation of many laws. They will be shut down on that alone. If their bill of fare is pig roasts, you cannot sue them for not supplying white rhino burgers, as that is not one of their menu items. This is all completely independent of the person making the request, so no discrimination is involved.
Quote:
In a similar vein, should a t-shirt manufacturer be required to print up shirts that have material on them which violate the first amendment (in the US)?
No, of course not. Nobody has ever stated that businesses should be required to do illegal things just because a customer asks. This is a classic straw man fallacy.
Quote:
Or what if they make a direct attack on the t-shirt maker? What can I be forced to put on a shirt, regardless of my personal/religious/emotional sensibility?
Good questions, and I would say that it depends on how the shirt maker sets their standards. If they state, up front, that they will not print offensive and/or pornographic material, then it is fine for them to refuse that business, because they do not print it for anybody. On the other hand, if they typically produce offensive material, but they refuse to do it for a particular person because of that person's membership in a class, that is clearly discriminatory.
Quote:
It isn't simple or even consistent.
Actually, it is. You have consistently missed the main point here. It isn't about forcing a vendor to produce something that is not part of their normal business. It is about a vendor refusing to provide services based upon a customer's race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
ETA: I had not read IMissthe90s post prior to composing mine, although I note we have come to almost the exact same conclusions. It seems that using discrimination as the line that cannot be crossed does result in a consistent set of results. Imagine that? Maybe secular reasoning is superior to shifting religious values in this case?
Last edited by fishbrains; 08-28-2019 at 10:10 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
