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I wonder how many Christians would acknowledge what you said here. I'm not seeing anything to disagree with. And you've been there, so you know it first hand.
All very interesting indeed! Unfortunately, it's past time for me to get on with preparing our BSB now, so maybe I'll get a better chance to come back to this tomorrow. Until then, cheers to all and go SDSU!
Yeah. I have no problem with any of these as stories, culture, and cultural history. The source of traditions, etc. I have no problem with books as books. I have a problem when people think that a literal creator of the entire universe (of billions of galaxies), actually wrote them. And they base their beliefs and lives around that ridiculous notion.
Yes. Any objective truth and objective reality, is one that we can observe and collect data and measure independently of each other, and can always test to see if accurate or not. Science is the method of pursuit, not the body of knowledge. The body of our current understanding is ever-changing.
It's things people choose to believe, without scientific evidence. Especially in a religious context.
Yeah, we have to base our interactions with each other, and our human society and species in general, around the secular, the objective, the scientific and the observable. It's mass chaos when people's subjective, mutually exclusive religious beliefs clash with a conflicting other's. The personal views need to remain personal, and not external.
In other words, let's be excellent to each other, and go explore the universe peacefully together. Spot on.
Science is good for mankind, and the hopeful good of our future.
Faith serves some positive things with believers' personal needs, it serves some positive things in communities today, and it held societies together in the past and humanity's civilized history.
It's not all bad. It's just not the way forward for the species, in terms of objective goals and actions and social cooperation and peace and tolerance.
They will deny these clear statements of sound reason, because they know that it's not good for the health of their religions in an organized sense, or in a sense of any power or influence or sway. Critical thinking and secular society leads to fewer religious people. Fewer religious people leads to fewer indoctrinated children, etc. It creates a cascade effect that renders a particular religion less and less relevant, and eventually its possibly obsolescence entirely. So it's a fear of that as well, plus everything you mentioned.
Thanks much. I appreciate all your comments. If interested, you can review the many comments posted in this thread that are quite negative about the same things we seem to mostly agree about. Interesting to consider all the varied reaction to my OP and this thread. Kind of you to pay a visit and post your comments. Which I'll have a better chance to consider if/when I return tomorrow. Thanks again.
Curious, I looked up some of her quotes, but I don't think I've found the one you are referring to...
Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?
Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth
They say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on Earth
Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth
A very solid late ‘80s pop rock anthem that features prominently in my favorite episode of Black Mirror (which, apropos to this thread, addresses the idea of life after death as a purely technological concept).
Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?
Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth
They say in Heaven, love comes first
We'll make Heaven a place on Earth
Ooh, Heaven is a place on Earth
A very solid late ‘80s pop rock anthem that features prominently in my favorite episode of Black Mirror (which, apropos to this thread, addresses the idea of life after death as a purely technological concept).
Ah thanks!
Not exactly my quote. No mention of hell on earth too, but close enough. Thanks again!
ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that exists in the universe. The universe is forever in flux, full of mystery that will forever be marveled and explored by Man as long as he survives.
THREE: The first reality for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the world; from Astrology to Zoraoastianism. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy, the Book of Mormon and others. These are the books about men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Moses and Joseph Smith.
FOUR: The second reality, all that exists in the universe, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). Universal truth is all we can accept as reality, the truth, with the most certainty and least conflict. What we can all most reasonably accept as true for all concerned.
FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond universal truth as determined and defined by science. Such notions, religions, often involve spirituality or a belief in an energy, power or force. A belief in a deity, god or gods, the supernatural. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotions and feelings rather than facts, reason and logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observation or scientific verification.
SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical guides Man to further scientific discovery. However, when conjecture about the supernatural leads to faith and religious inculcation rather facts, reason and logic, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people still today cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is continuously promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war still raging to this day; the Crusades, Protestants v Catholics, Jews v Muslims, Shiites v Sunnis.
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit spiritual conjecture is to foster a greater respect for the truth as currently defined or understood by science. Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth for all human beings. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the significant amount of conflict between differing faiths. As Man learns to universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared and the prospect of peace improved.
EIGHT: Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans. Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress. Science encourages inquiry thus expanding Man's awareness and enlightenment. Faith typically deems any question about God's existence as evil in nature, not to be tolerated. Science has no such restrictions or judgement. Accordingly, there is no manner in which to reconcile these two competing approaches toward revealing Man's universal truth.
NINE: Faith can and does promote goodwill between some people. Creation of beautiful places of worship, help for those in need, community and comfort through difficult times. Even a code of conduct necessary for some to be moral. Yes of course, but with the good there is no need for the bad or falsehoods. Truth is best realized and peace most successfully promoted as more people patiently accept and embrace Man's common reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance very slowly growing from one century to the next is the maturing of Man. His best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the universe, proven or yet to be proven.
TEN: People of faith will deny if not condemn these truths for many reasons; from fear of god to fear of no god. Fear of death to fear of Hell. Typically beginning with the significant influence of inculcation at a young impressionable age, the subsequent effects of confirmation bias over time, development of ego and bigotry all prevent objective reason and logic to prevail for Man as quickly as it should. Instead the condemnation persists even to this day much like when Galileo was even imprisoned for attempting to overcome these same obstacles centuries ago. Much like the Jesuits denounced Elvis Presley. Much like Harry Potter books are banned in Catholic schools today. The ignorance and intolerance persists. Much like the ongoing effort to overcome the ills of racism, sexism, xenophobia and homophobia that also still persist today, the effort to overcome these backward ways very slowly and painfully is the progress of Man that each generation represents better than the last.
If I were to summarize the main takeaway from these truths, is that science is our best bet at not only learning about reality, but also through science we can find our common ground as a people. That we can be peaceful toward each other by knowing who we are and how we came to be. Of course you mentioned the limitations of science and how its possibly (even likely) we will never know everything through it.
Its my belief not only is it possible/likely we will never know everything through science, but that we can't even begin to know the ultimate truth of all reality through science. I see it is as way more limiting then scientists see it. I mentioned in another thread how 100 billion years from now, the universe will be so spread out (galaxies), any creature doing science in that day will believe there was no Big Bang. They would accept through science their galaxy is all there is. So a lot of critical observation would be lost to them, and they would draw a wholescale different origin speculation from the one we have today. If that is true for them in that day, how do we know there is not already critical observation missing for us? So critical, that we are drawing an absolute wrong conclusion about our past and reality? This is something I cannot accept!!!!!!!!
All that said, I don't see scientists doing a whole lot in promoting the truths science has revealed to us to the common masses. They are too busy with their own clique to challenge those in power. I don't see them successfully reaching out to the young impressionable minds in the streets and those passing by in our schools. They are not at the ground level, willing to suffer for the sake of those who would accept the possibilities science could bring. In other words, science isn't having that much true impact that most religions are having in changing the minds of people. Only with science, our technology is increasing.
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