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Old 01-19-2024, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,074 posts, read 24,571,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
First - about Elvis - Religious Criticism of Elvis Presley

Second - Harry Potter - https://www.oursundayvisitor.com/can...0%9D%20sorcery. Also: The only Catholic School which removed Harry Potter books was in Nashville - in the heart of the Bible belt.

Because facts matter.
Please don't post in red. That's reserved for mods.
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Old 01-19-2024, 02:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Please don't post in red. That's reserved for mods.
Sorry, I didn't know!
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Old 01-19-2024, 03:01 PM
 
7,448 posts, read 4,221,046 times
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
First, you may want to change the color of the red text, red is for moderators.


Sorry - your posts are in bold now

Quote:
No, both religious and non-religious scientists perceive naturalism.
Yes, everyone perceives naturalism. It's what you do with the information!

Gregor Johann Mendel - July 20, 1822 - January 6, 1884, Augustinian friar and abbot of St. Thomas' Abbey in Brno, was a biologist, meteorologist, mathematician. He is best know as the father genetics.

Quote:
Mendel worked with seven characteristics of pea plants: plant height, pod shape and color, seed shape and color, and flower position and color. Mendel coined the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in reference to certain traits. In the preceding example, the green trait, which seems to have vanished in the first filial generation, is recessive and the yellow is dominant. He published his work in 1866, demonstrating the actions of invisible "factors"—now called genes—in predictably determining the traits of an organism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

Well, from Mendel's work on plant genetics, Charles Darwin went to human biology

Charles Robert Darwin - February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882 was an English naturalist, geologist and biologist, widely known for his contributions to evolutionary biology.

Quote:
With The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex published in 1871, Darwin set out evidence from numerous sources that humans are animals, showing continuity of physical and mental attributes, and presented sexual selection to explain impractical animal features such as the peacock's plumage as well as human evolution of culture, differences between sexes, and physical and cultural racial classification, while emphasizing that humans are all one species. According to an editorial in Nature journal: "Although Charles Darwin opposed slavery and proposed that humans have a common ancestor, he also advocated a hierarchy of races, with white people higher than others."

His research using images was expanded in his 1872 book The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals, one of the first books to feature printed photographs, which discussed the evolution of human psychology and its continuity with the behaviour of animals. Both books proved very popular, and Darwin was impressed by the general assent with which his views had been received, remarking that "everybody is talking about it without being shocked." His conclusion was "that man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system—with all these exalted powers—Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...#Human_society

Later on, scientists divided nationalities into races. If you look on US immigration pages, Poles, Germans, English, Italians are listed as separate races. When the Immigration Act of 1924 limited the number of immigrants allowed entry into the United States based on race which was national origins. So a Polish person coming from Britain would be prohibited based on his Polish race, whereas an English person coming from Britain would be permitted to enter.

The Americans and Nazi's took this a step further by sterilizing people with disabilities.

Quote:
There are many laws in the United States that allow forced sterilization of disabled people. Today, 31 states and Washington, D.C., have laws allowing forced sterilization of disabled people. Under these laws, a judge can decide whether to sterilize someone. This happens when the judge thinks the disabled person cannot make the decision on their own. The judge can order the sterilization if they think it is the best choice for the disabled person.
https://nwlc.org/resource/forced-ste...united-states/

Quote:
Social Darwinism came to play a major role in the ideology of Nazism, where it was combined with a similarly pseudo-scientific theory of racial hierarchy in order to identify the Germans as a part of what the Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. This ideology held unreservedly to the notion of the survival of the fittest, at both the level of the individual as well as the level of entire peoples and states. This notion claimed to have natural law on its side. All opposing religious and humanitarian views would ultimately prove to be unnatural. A person could only prove its worth in the long run in this ongoing "struggle for survival", if they promoted the best and, if necessary, eliminated those that weakened them. Moreover, only a person as racially pure as possible could maintain the "struggle for existence". To maintain or improve the Nordic-Germanic race, therefore, the laws of eugenics or the (biologistically oriented) "racial hygiene" would have to be strictly observed, that is, the promotion of the "genetically healthy" and the elimination of the "sick". All those with hereditary illnesses or who were severely mentally and physically disabled were classified as "lives unworthy of life" (lebensunwertes Leben). They would, in terms of natural selection, be "eliminated". This form of eugenics was eventually the basis of the National Socialist genetic health policy which was elevated to the rank of state doctrine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_...n_Nazi_Germany

In a win for religion:

Quote:
Finally, in 1941, Bishop Count Clemens von Galen denounced the euthanasia program from his pulpit. Hitler did not need such publicity. He ordered the program suspended, at least in Germany. But 50,000 people had already fallen victim to it. It would be revived in occupied Poland.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...anasia-program

Quote:
No, religion was tolerated for most of the time during Soviet times. Stalin even encouraged it during the second world war as he found it useful.
Quote:
The USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941 was a new phase of anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union following the anti-religious campaign of 1921–1928. The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for an education process on religion in order to further disseminate atheism and materialist philosophy.

The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited. More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone. Only a twelfth of the Russian Orthodox Church's priests were left functioning in their parishes by 1941.

In the period between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the USSR fell from 29,584 to less than 500 (1.7%) due to systematic demolitions of the churches and cathedrals.

Believers were in fact being widely targeted and persecuted for their belief or promotion of religion, as part of the state's campaign to disseminate atheism, but officially the state claimed that no such persecution existed and that the people being targeted - when they admitted that people were being targeted - were only being attacked for resistance to the state or breaking the law. This guise served Soviet propaganda abroad, where it tried to promote a better image of itself especially in light of the great criticism against it from foreign religious influences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_a...Soviet%20Union.

Quote:
No, many of the texts simply disappeared, because the religious of the middle ages disliked atomist theories, so they were simply not copied. We accidentally lost a lot of science because of Christianity. From the end of the middle ages to 1900, many scientific discoveries were made independently of religion.

As for universities, they are just a different version of educational schools that existed before Christianity even existed. And how many scientific discoveries can you name that came from Christian universites during he middle ages?
Quote:
Europe’s largest universities – of Bologna, Sorbonne and Oxford, among others – were established by monasteries and almost immediately began to be supported by the Church, including with money. Even the Paris Academy of Sciences – established in the 17th century – grew out of the circle of scholars brought together by the Franciscan monk Marin Mersenne, including Descartes, Fermat and Pascal. Likewise, Russia’s first institution of higher learning, the Slavic, Greek and Latin Academy established in 1685, was conceived by two monastic brothers – Ioannikios and Sophronius Leichoudes.
https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blo...20over%20books.

I'll come back with a list later on!

Last edited by YorktownGal; 01-19-2024 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 01-20-2024, 09:51 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,795,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Sorry, I didn't know!
Interesting...

Given your "reputation" and what seems a long time of participating in this forum, how could you not know?
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Old 01-20-2024, 10:26 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,795,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
First - about Elvis - Religious Criticism of Elvis Presley

Second - Harry Potter - https://www.oursundayvisitor.com/can...0%9D%20sorcery. Also: The only Catholic School which removed Harry Potter books was in Nashville - in the heart of the Bible belt.

Because facts matter.
I think some of your more recent comments are veering a bit from the topic of this thread, and that's okay, but I'm going to get back to your comments specifically about my Ten Truths. I suspect I'll have to pick away at this for a bit and we'll see how far I get before I need to sign off again...

ONE: It seems we agree. I don't disagree with your first comment anyway, but I'm not sure it takes into full account the initial point I'm trying to make with my first truth.

TWO: Check again. Right. Funny.

THREE: Check again.

FOUR: Fair enough.

FIVE: To my knowledge there are no "cases of scientific verification of religion," though I suspect we need to be sure we're both referring to the same thing you are calling religion here. All I know about are claims such as yours and each one has been debunked when proper scrutiny has been applied. Questions may remain, but scientific verification that supernatural or god-like deities actually exist have not been presented to date. My fifth truth has more to do with how faith has played a roll in terms of all manner of speculation made by mankind going back to the beginning in any case.

SIX: I'm not sure I understand your response. I am not referring to all conflicts over the course of human history. Just those related to religion. Of course there are other causes too, but religion has been a rather significant long-running one among the rest.

SEVEN: There is far more I'm trying to explain by way of this truth than what any one country or government has done in the name of religion, or that any one country or government has done to address religion one way or another. This about communism is often mentioned by some as an example of religious intolerance, but there is a lot more to that story that isn't about the pros and cons of religion my truths are really about. Communism is actually a small part of the overall story to put it another way.

EIGHT: True. Your comment about this reminds me of my opportunity to see the Book of Kells, housed at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. Look them up if you are not familiar with them. Incredible, and yes, thanks to people like the early religious monks who were among the few who were literate and took it upon themselves to save and preserve many of these works from the middle ages. I certainly don't deny or argue any of that, but of course back in those days science wasn't even a thing. Many discoveries were made back then, but unlike what you seem wanting to suggest, they were not considered "scientific discoveries." They were mostly observations that all too often didn't reconcile too well with religious doctrine. You might ask Galileo about what I'm getting at here. There is a great book I often recommend about this history going back to the earliest of these discoveries, before science was a thing. Often thanks to religious people. It's called "A Brief History of Creation: Science and the Search for the Origin of Life," by Bill Mesler, H. James Cleaves II. All true!

Maybe I can get to NINE and TEN another time, because I am out of time today, but so far it seems we're mostly on the same page though perhaps some misunderstanding about what points I'm trying to make with all this and/or confusion about points I wasn't trying to make...

Cheers and a good weekend to you and yours!
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Old 01-21-2024, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,832 posts, read 5,040,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Yes, everyone perceives naturalism. It's what you do with the information!
I am not sure what point you were trying to make with your list? Science, therefore Nazis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
I am aware of what persecution did happen, that does not refute the point that for most of the time, the Soviet Union had religious tolerance, especially for the Russian Orthodox church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
https://catalog.obitel-minsk.com/blo...20over%20books.

I'll come back with a list later on!
Things invented by religious institutions after the middle ages is not evidence for things invented by religious institutions during the middle ages, which is what I asked for.
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Old 01-21-2024, 03:13 PM
 
7,448 posts, read 4,221,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I am not sure what point you were trying to make with your list? Science, therefore Nazis?
My point is that science is fine and objective. Scientists are not neutral observers of scientific data. Scientists have beliefs, personalities, prejudices, etc. which affects their choice of experiments and how they view of the data.

For instance:

Quote:
Extraordinary tale of scientist parents who adopted a chimpanzee to raise as their baby's SISTER - but bitterly regretted bizarre 'nature versus nurture' experiment on their son after it yielded chilling results

Psychologists Winthrop and Luella Kellogg conducted the study on their ten-month-old son Donald and a seven-month-old chimp called Gua at their Florida home. They conducted the experiment in 1931

The couple were attempting to establish if it was possible to educate an ape and teach them to communicate as a human. Winthrop devised the experiment after becoming fascinated by the 'wolf children' of India - a group of kids who adopted the behavior of the wild animals after being raised away from civilization.

After determining that raising a child in the wild would be unethical and dangerous, the couple instead decided to bring an ape into their home and bring it up like their infant son.

But Donald and Gua were also subjected to a barrage of unusual and often cruel experiments aimed at comparing their reflexes and reactions to scenarios - with their parents recording their findings in detailed notes and on film.

Across the experiment the two were also monitored for 'blood pressure, memory, body size, scribbling, reflexes, depth perception, vocalization, locomotion, reactions to tickling, strength, manual dexterity, problem solving, fears, equilibrium, play behavior, climbing, obedience, grasping, language comprehension, attention span, and others,' according to a psychologists note.

The results from the Kelloggs' study was published in 1933, entitled The Ape and the Child.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xperiment.html

The 1930's science was not good. Yes, the Nazi human experiments were part of it, but it didn't stop with the Nazi's.

Quote:
In 1932, the USPHS, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis. It was originally called the “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male” (now referred to as the “USPHS Untreated Syphilis Study at Tuskegee”). The study initially involved 600 Black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. Participants’ informed consent was not collected. Researchers told the men they were being treated for “bad blood,” a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance.

By 1943, penicillin was the treatment of choice for syphilis and becoming widely available, but the participants in the study were not offered treatment. The experiment, conducted by the PHS, was designed to determine through autopsies what damage untreated syphilis does to the human body.
https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timelin...ot%20collected.

Quote:
A stuttering experiment carried on 22 orphan children in 1939 in Iowa later became infamous worldwide as the Monster Study. It was performed by Wendell Johnson, a speech pathologist at the University of Iowa. The horrific experiment was performed by his graduate student Mary Tudor. All the 22 orphans were split in to two groups. One group was given positive therapy for their fluent speech other was given negative therapy and were criticized for their imperfection in speech. This result of this cruel and horrific experiment was the negative group suffering from negative physiological effects, and some of them suffering from speech problems for the rest of their lives.
https://www.microhealthllc.com/blog/...l-experiments/

Quote:
This was designation of a cruel and horrific medial study performed on the inhabitants of the Marshall Islands. These natives were exposed to nuclear radiation fallout from The Castle Bravo nuclear test at Bikini atoll. This nuclear test had an unexpectedly large yield. Instead of warning the residents of the radiation, the US government decided to stay quiet and to observe the effects of radiation for research purposes.

This exposure increased miscarriages and still births. Many of the children carried to term had developmental problems. One third of the islanders developed tumors and died due to the negative effects of the nuclear radiation.
https://www.microhealthllc.com/blog/...l-experiments/

Last edited by YorktownGal; 01-21-2024 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 01-21-2024, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,074 posts, read 24,571,497 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
My point is that science is fine and objective. Scientists are not neutral observers of scientific data. Scientists have beliefs, personalities, prejudices, etc. which affects their choice of experiments and how they view of the data.

...
Of course. They are human beings.

But 'the body of science' is, over time, self-correcting.
Much more so than the 'body of religion'.
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Old 01-21-2024, 06:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Of course. They are human beings.

But 'the body of science' is, over time, self-correcting.
Much more so than the 'body of religion'.
Theoretically, Phet, but science has become quite insular with the prominent leaders in each field in control of access to the publications. Besides, it is a silly comparison. Religion doesn't even make a pretense of revision. It just splits and breaks into separate sects claiming to have the truth.
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Old 01-22-2024, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Of course. They are human beings.

But 'the body of science' is, over time, self-correcting.
Much more so than the 'body of religion'.
Good point more succinctly made than I was about to attempt, and perhaps even more important to recognize just how badly people seem to misunderstand what the scientific method is all about. How it works. As if any one scientist can somehow bend the arc of discovery away from the entire world-wide scientific community with something like a story about a chimp...

Yes of course scientists are humans, and yes of course they may be unduly influenced by personal opinions, inclinations and perspective, but the whole idea behind the scientific process is to mitigate those sorts of issues by way of extensive "checks and balances." Tests, methods of validation, verification, and peer review along with all the rest that can properly distill the facts from fiction in a way that few if any other disciplines can. Always amazes me that so many people don't seem to understand or properly appreciate what this means for all concerned.
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