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Old 01-22-2024, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,776 posts, read 24,277,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Good point more succinctly made than I was about to attempt, and perhaps even more important to recognize just how badly people seem to misunderstand what the scientific method is all about. How it works. As if any one scientist can somehow bend the arc of discovery away from the entire world-wide scientific community with something like a story about a chimp...

Yes of course scientists are humans, and yes of course they may be unduly influenced by personal opinions, inclinations and perspective, but the whole idea behind the scientific process is to mitigate those sorts of issues by way of extensive "checks and balances." Tests, methods of validation, verification, and peer review along with all the rest that can properly distill the facts from fiction in a way that few if any other disciplines can. Always amazes me that so many people don't seem to understand or properly appreciate what this means for all concerned.
Well put.

I don't think religious people with no real science background understand something as simple as the scientific method. It isn't a bunch of people all doing different stuff. It's people conducting one basic experiment, keeping all variables as equal as possible, and then coming to a general conclusion...and THEN moving on to another step of research. And that's much different than the thousands of sects of christianity who all claim to have THE answer.
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Old 01-23-2024, 08:33 AM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,121,162 times
Reputation: 16788
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well put.

I don't think religious people with no real science background understand something as simple as the scientific method. It isn't a bunch of people all doing different stuff. It's people conducting one basic experiment, keeping all variables as equal as possible, and then coming to a general conclusion...and THEN moving on to another step of research. And that's much different than the thousands of sects of christianity who all claim to have THE answer.
Everyone who graduates a decent high school know the scientific method.

Okay, what happened in Wuhu? It seems mostly related to the Huanan Seafood Market. Then "on 28 February 2023 the controversial claim that the pandemic might have leaked from a Chinese laboratory resurfaced with FBI Director Christopher Wray's comments that the bureau believes Covid-19 "most likely" originated in a "Chinese government-controlled lab" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111

If so, covid was created by scientists conducting gain of function testing on a virus with poor lab practices. This proves that science is only as good as each individual scientist and his society.

Regardless of how covid came to be, after covid's initial outbreak in China, Wuhu was isolated from the rest of China. Doctors/scientists knew how to prevention the spread in China. However, the Chinese government allowed Wuhu to travel to Europe and the US. A political entity made the decision. The decision on how to act is as important as the science. If the government had locked down Wuhu to overseas travel, life in the US would have been significantly better over the last three years. Perhaps, science is only as good as government.

Anywho, science is focused on the physical world and religion is focus is on spirituality. I'm not sure why you think these two overlap to the point of conflict.

Quote:
Georges Lemaître, (1894-1966), Belgian cosmologist, Catholic priest, discovered the Big Bang theory.

Catholics' contributions to the development of evolutionary theory included those of the Augustinian friar Gregor Mendel (1822-1884). Mendel entered the Brno Augustinian monastery in 1843, but also trained as a scientist at the Olmutz Philosophical Institute and at the University of Vienna.

The work of the Danish scientist Nicolas Steno (1638-1686), who converted to Catholicism and became a bishop, helped establish the science of geology, leading to modern scientific measurements of the age of the Earth.

The Church has deferred to scientists on matters such as the age of the earth and the authenticity of the fossil record. Papal pronouncements, along with commentaries by cardinals, have accepted the findings of scientists on the gradual appearance of life
wikipedia

The only disagreement between the Catholic Church and scientists is that the Catholic Church believe that evolution is not random or chaotic but by the design of God. There is no way for scientists to prove or disprove this theory.

Last edited by YorktownGal; 01-23-2024 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 01-23-2024, 09:14 AM
 
63,788 posts, read 40,053,123 times
Reputation: 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Everyone who graduates a decent high school know the scientific method.

Okay, what happened in Wuhu? It seems mostly related to the Huanan Seafood Market. Then "on 28 February 2023 the controversial claim that the pandemic might have leaked from a Chinese laboratory resurfaced with FBI Director Christopher Wray's comments that the bureau believes Covid-19 "most likely" originated in a "Chinese government-controlled lab" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111

If so, covid was created by scientists conducting gain of function testing on a virus with poor lab practices.

Science is only as good as each individual scientist and his society. After covid's initial outbreak in China, Wuhu was isolated from the rest of China. However, the Chinese government allowed Wuhu to travel to Europe and the US. If the government had locked down Wuhu to overseas travel, life in the US would have been significantly better over the last three years.


Anywho, science is focused on the physical world and religion is focus is on spirituality. I'm not sure why you think these two overlap to the point of conflict.

wikipedia

The only disagreement between the Catholic Church and scientists is that the Catholic Church believe that evolution is not random or chaotic but by the design of God. There is no way for scientists to prove or disprove this theory.
The bold will probably be considered too political, but it is just the tip of the China iceberg that is trying to "sink the Titanic" of Western society. It capitalizes on greed to spread its influence and infiltrate all our systems. China does not have good intentions regarding the rest of the world, period. Covid was a passive-aggressive bio-attack on the rest of us, IMO. They are not very religious or spiritual, to say the least.
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Old 01-23-2024, 09:22 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Everyone who graduates a decent high school know the scientific method.

Okay, what happened in Wuhu? It seems mostly related to the Huanan Seafood Market. Then "on 28 February 2023 the controversial claim that the pandemic might have leaked from a Chinese laboratory resurfaced with FBI Director Christopher Wray's comments that the bureau believes Covid-19 "most likely" originated in a "Chinese government-controlled lab" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111

If so, covid was created by scientists conducting gain of function testing on a virus with poor lab practices.

Science is only as good as each individual scientist and his society. After covid's initial outbreak in China, Wuhu was isolated from the rest of China. However, the Chinese government allowed Wuhu to travel to Europe and the US. If the government had locked down Wuhu to overseas travel, life in the US would have been significantly better over the last three years.

Anywho, science is focused on the physical world and religion is focus is on spirituality. I'm not sure why you think these two overlap to the point of conflict.

wikipedia

The only disagreement between the Catholic Church and scientists is that the Catholic Church believe that evolution is not random or chaotic but by the design of God. There is no way for scientists to prove or disprove this theory.
I continue to be more than a little baffled by your comments and many like yours that forever want to point at the fallibility of science as if to suggest anyone should have expectations that all things science can or should be perfect. To appreciate what science is and how the scientific method works is not to suggest it works perfectly. It just works better than most other manner in which to discover all that science has helped us to discover is all. Contrary to what religion has done or how religion works. That's all...

Or next time you need a medicine or vaccine or ultrasound or Xray or trip on a plane or a light bulb or... do complain away, and while you do you might think again about what everyone who graduates from high school knows about the scientific method. Hopefully some know more than you seem to know, but all too often it doesn't seem that way.

Let us pray...
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Old 01-23-2024, 09:24 AM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,121,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
I am aware of what persecution did happen, that does not refute the point that for most of the time, the Soviet Union had religious tolerance, especially for the Russian Orthodox church.
Quote:
In November 1917, within weeks of the revolution, the People's Commissariat for Enlightenment was established, which a month later created the All-Russian Union of Teachers-Internationalists for the purpose of removing religious instruction from school curricula. In order to intensify the anti-religious propaganda in the school system, the Chief Administration for Political Enlightenment (Glavpolitprosvet) was established in November 1920.

Lenin's decree deprived the formerly official church of its status of legal personhood, the right to own property, or to teach religion in both state and private schools or to any group of minors.

During the Russian Civil War, the estimate of 330 clergy and monastics killed by 1921 may have been an underestimate, due to the fact that 579 monasteries/convents had been liquidated during this period and there were widespread mass executions of monks/nuns during these liquidations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n_(1917–1921)

Quote:
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited. More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone. Only a twelfth of the Russian Orthodox Church's priests were left functioning in their parishes by 1941.

In the period between 1927 and 1940, the number of Orthodox Churches in the Russian Republic fell from 29,584 to less than 500 (1.7%) due to systematic demolitions of the churches and cathedrals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_a...e%20prohibited.

This must be what you were referring to earlier:

Quote:
In 1941, Stalin ended the anti-religious campaign in order to rally the country and prevent a large base of Nazi support. In September 1941, three months after the Nazi attack, the last antireligious periodicals were shut down. Churches were re-opened in the Soviet Union and the League of the Militant Godless was disbanded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec..._rapprochement

However, you left out these facts:

Quote:
After the Red Army recaptured occupied territories, many clergy in these territories were arrested and sent to prisons or camps for very long terms, allegedly for collaboration with the Germans, but effectively for their rebuilding of religious life underneath the occupation.

These mass arrests were echoed in territories that were not even occupied by the Germans. For example, in April 1946 there was a wave of arrests in Moscow of clergy that belonged to Bishop Afanasii's group that had returned to the official church; they were sentenced to long terms of hard labor. Many laity were arrested and imprisoned as well including the religious philosopher SI Fudel; most of them had already been in prison and few of them would see freedom until after Stalin died. The spiritual father of the group, Fr Seraphim (Batiukov), had died in 1942, but his body was dug up and disposed of elsewhere in order to prevent pilgrimages to his grave by people who believed him to be a saint.

All the above-mentioned bishops and significant part of clergymen died in prisons, concentration camps, internal exile, or soon after their release during the post-Stalin thaw. The exception was metropolitan Josyf Slipyj who, after 18 years of imprisonment and persecution, was released thanks to the intervention of Pope John XXIII. All Eastern-rite monasteries had been shut down by 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

It's more than outright banning of priest and churches, there was a lot of soft power used against religion:

Quote:
In 1960, The Central Committee brought back 'individual work' among believers, which was a concept used in the 1930s. This was a practice of atheist tutors visiting known religious believers at their homes try to convince them to become atheists. In most cases the tutors were workmates of the believers. If the believer was not convinced, the tutor would bring it to the attention of their union or professional collectives, and the 'backwardness and obstinancy' of the specific believers were presented in public meetings. If this did not work, administrative harassment would follow at work or school, and the believers would often be subject to lower-paid jobs, blocking of promotion, or expulsion from college if the believer was in college. Teachers commonly physically punished believing schoolchildren.

Despite the decline in direct persecution, the Soviet media reported in the post-Khrushchev years that religious rites (e.g. weddings, baptisms and funerals) were on the decline as well as the actual number of people practicing religion. This was presented as a natural process, rather than a result of terror, harassment, threats or physical closures, as had characterized previous anti-religious work.[/u]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

You terrorize a population for half a century, there is natural change in behavior to avoid persecution.


Quote:
People who were more highly educated or who occupied more important positions were subject to harsher harassment and punishment than those who were uneducated. Religious youth at colleges could sometimes be sent to psychiatric hospitals on grounds that only a person with a psychological disorder would still be religious after going through the whole anti-religious education.

In 1975 the CRA was given an official legal supervision role over the state (prior to this it had unofficial control). Every parish was placed at the disposal of the CRA, which alone had the power to grant registration. The CRA could arbitrarily decide on the registration of religious communities, and allow them to worship or not. This policy was accompanied by intimidation, blackmail and threat to the clergy, and as a whole it was meant to demoralize the Church.

The Soviet Constitution of 1977 was sometimes interpreted by authorities as containing a requirement for parents to raise their children as atheists. It was legally possible to deprive parents of their children if they failed to raise them as atheists, but these legal restrictions were only enforced selectively when the authorities chose to do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

Perhaps, you mean this:

Quote:
Beginning in the late 1980s, under Mikhail Gorbachev, the new political and social freedoms resulted in many church buildings being returned to the church, to be restored by local parishioners. A pivotal point in the history of the Russian Orthodox Church came in 1988 - the millennial anniversary of the Baptism of Kievan Rus'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

Still:

Quote:
The religious bodies could still be heavily infiltrated by state agents, due to the power of local governments to reject elected parish officials and install their own people in the lay organization that owned the parish, which meant that even if they had ownership over their churches, it was still effectively in the state's hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

I was in Poland in the early 1970's when the Catholic Church was strong. As the Catholic Church is an international organization, the Soviets had to treated it differently. The Soviets (as our ally) desperately needed US support during WWII, enough to prevent a crackdown on Catholics. After the war and with the Iron Curtain, it was different:

Quote:
The Vatican was often attacked in Polish propaganda as a negative influence on Poland, and claimed that Poland ceased to exist in the 18th century because the Vatican had weakened it. Propaganda also tried to link the Vatican with fascism, and claimed Pius XII was responsible for Franco's coup d'état in Spain as well as the Vichy regime in wartime France. Polish clergy loyal to the Vatican were also considered as fascists in the propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...w_(1956–1970)

Yet,

Quote:
The antireligious propaganda failed to find much popularity among the Polish masses. Despite the pressure placed on the church, the number of priests leaving seminaries actually attained higher levels in the 1950s than it had been in the pre-war years.

From the 1960s onward Poland developed an increasingly vocal Catholic intelligentsia and an active movement of young Catholics. The "Oasis" movement, was created in the 1960s by Father Franciszek Blachniki, and it consisted of Church activities including pilgrimages, retreats and various ecumenical endeavours. Intense efforts by the state to undermine it failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...w_(1956–1970)
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Old 01-23-2024, 09:53 AM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,121,162 times
Reputation: 16788
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I continue to be more than a little baffled by your comments and many like yours that forever want to point at the fallibility of science as if to suggesc anyone should have expectations that all things science can or should be perfect. To appreciate what science is and how the scientific method works is not to suggest it works perfectly. It just works better than most other manner in which to discover all that science has helped us to discover is all. Contrary to what religion has done or how religion works. That's all...

Or next time you need a medicine or vaccine or ultrasound or Xray or trip on a plane or a light bulb or... do complain away, and while you do you might think again about what everyone who graduates from high school knows about the scientific method. Hopefully some know more than you seem to know, but all too often it doesn't seem that way.

Let us pray...

Quote:
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit spiritual conjecture is to foster a greater respect for the truth as currently defined or understood by science. Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth for all human beings. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the significant amount of conflict between differing faiths. As Man learns to universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared and the prospect of peace improved.

EIGHT: Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans. Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress. Science encourages inquiry thus expanding Man's awareness and enlightenment. Faith typically deems any question about God's existence as evil in nature, not to be tolerated. Science has no such restrictions or judgement. Accordingly, there is no manner in which to reconcile these two competing approaches toward revealing Man's universal truth.
Your OP is not referring to "a medicine or vaccine or ultrasound or Xray or trip on a plane or a light bulb," it's demonizing religion and placing more emphasis on science. Science is not a replacement for moral guidance. Science can not replace religion. Science is used by governments for their own means and does not provide framework for behaviors.

You posts are full of false equivalencies.
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Old 01-23-2024, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,776 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Everyone who graduates a decent high school know the scientific method.

Okay, what happened in Wuhu? It seems mostly related to the Huanan Seafood Market. Then "on 28 February 2023 the controversial claim that the pandemic might have leaked from a Chinese laboratory resurfaced with FBI Director Christopher Wray's comments that the bureau believes Covid-19 "most likely" originated in a "Chinese government-controlled lab" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111

If so, covid was created by scientists conducting gain of function testing on a virus with poor lab practices. This proves that science is only as good as each individual scientist and his society.

Regardless of how covid came to be, after covid's initial outbreak in China, Wuhu was isolated from the rest of China. Doctors/scientists knew how to prevention the spread in China. However, the Chinese government allowed Wuhu to travel to Europe and the US. A political entity made the decision. The decision on how to act is as important as the science. If the government had locked down Wuhu to overseas travel, life in the US would have been significantly better over the last three years. Perhaps, science is only as good as government.

Anywho, science is focused on the physical world and religion is focus is on spirituality. I'm not sure why you think these two overlap to the point of conflict.

wikipedia

The only disagreement between the Catholic Church and scientists is that the Catholic Church believe that evolution is not random or chaotic but by the design of God. There is no way for scientists to prove or disprove this theory.
Actually, no they don't. Anymore than they know the metric system.
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Old 01-23-2024, 10:36 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Your OP is not referring to "a medicine or vaccine or ultrasound or Xray or trip on a plane or a light bulb," it's demonizing religion and placing more emphasis on science. Science is not a replacement for moral guidance. Science can not replace religion. Science is used by governments for their own means and does not provide framework for behaviors.

You posts are full of false equivalencies.
I agree the focus on science is getting a little defused from what I was more specifically referring to in my Ten Truths. There is much about science we could go on about here, but you are right to return us to what I originally wrote. Which was not to argue that science can replace religion. It can't and doesn't. Nor have I ever suggested or believed that science is a "replacement for moral guidance." I am merely pointing out that if we all stuck to accepting the universal truths that science has revealed for all of us -- without controversy, violence or war -- instead of pitting ourselves against one another due to religious beliefs and/or differences, we'd be better off.

Not that we would be free of controversy, violence or war, but only that if the different religious beliefs were subject to more of something like the scientific method, we would have less in the way of controversy, violence and war than we do as a result of these religious differences. Differences that the scientific method helps to minimize if not eliminate by way of methodology that doesn't leave beliefs such as these up to the whims of whomever wants to claim themselves the more holy or more moral. We certainly don't need science or religion for that matter to establish moral guidance worth following.

This is all I'm ultimately trying to promote or argue by way of my Ten Truths. If properly understood, there are no "false equivalencies."
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Old 01-23-2024, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,768 posts, read 4,974,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Still not most of the time the Soviet Union existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
Yes, I left out the facts where collaborators and suspected collaborators (including the religious) were persecuted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
It's more than outright banning of priest and churches, there was a lot of soft power used against religion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s
Did you read the link you posted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
You terrorize a population for half a century, there is natural change in behavior to avoid persecution.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

Perhaps, you mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s

Still:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...n#1964–1970s
This link four more times?

One must also remember that religious persecution was just a part of a general persecution against any internal threat to Soviet power, from the military (who lost 50% of the number of people in two years than the religious community did during the whole period of the Soviet Union), poets, writers, actors, artists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
I was in Poland in the early 1970's when the Catholic Church was strong. As the Catholic Church is an international organization, the Soviets had to treated it differently. The Soviets (as our ally) desperately needed US support during WWII, enough to prevent a crackdown on Catholics. After the war and with the Iron Curtain, it was different:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...w_(1956–1970)

Yet,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish...w_(1956–1970)
Poland is not the Soviet Union.
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Old 01-23-2024, 10:47 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
The only disagreement between the Catholic Church and scientists is that the Catholic Church believe that evolution is not random or chaotic but by the design of God. There is no way for scientists to prove or disprove this theory.
I'm not sure any part of this comment is true. The "only disagreement?" Come on now...

Scientists, no one, can prove or disprove any theory if there is no manner in which to validate a theory one way or another. What science CAN do is discover facts, evidence and proof about what can be verified and validated as true. If science can't do that, then whatever the "theory" might be is just that. Nothing more and nothing that SHOULD be made out to be true as if proven to be true. When it comes to most religious kinds of "theories," there are many. Contradictory and very hard to justify with even the most basic reasonable level of facts, reason and logic that might work for all concerned.

Hence the unnecessary controversies, violence and wars that could so easily be avoided if only...
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