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Old 01-29-2024, 09:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Don't you do exactly the same thing when you purport to know God is about agape love? To claim any such knowledge? The problem is the acceptance of all such speculation regardless what it might be. Agape love. Manifest Destiny. To save us from our sins. If you are going to play that game or be a part of that game, you can't denounce or claim the problem is "our thinking we know God's Will." Or claiming any such knowledge, because there begins the wide space of speculation regardless what the claims or speculation may be. Whether it be God controls everything or nothing. Gave us free will or didn't.

It is the freedom to make these sorts of claims that is being misused. Over and over again as the history of human history. Why? Because the "slow maturing of man" is no match for man's thirst to claim he knows what he doesn't, and his propensity to insist he does for all variety of ego-driven reasons that make up the nature of man. Sadly, for far too many men and women who can't seem to help themselves and/or who can't seem to muster the patience to "give it a rest" already. In the name of peace for all concerned.
You are not reading carefully enough. The misuse is arrogantly trying to IMPOSE what we THINK we know about God on anyone else but ourselves that is the issue, NOT belief in God, per se. We have legitimate secular reasons for some things but God alone is NOT a legitimate reason to impose on others.
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Old 01-29-2024, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,026 posts, read 24,518,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
You don't have agree with my tongue-in-check post. It's a big world with lots of ideas. You do you!

LearnMe,

Science will be used to justify horrible things. It's not religion or science, people that are the problem.

It's like when my son was in preschool, everything began a gun. A stick or a paint bush became a gun. Like many boys in his age group, it was a compulsion. Thankfully, some people grown out of it and unfortunately, many don't. There are always going to be a group of people who will use any rational to guillotine their opposition.

After your last post, why you are so angry over CD? After the 2014 Israel-Palestinian conflict, I went to services at a Quaker Church because of their belief in nonviolence. There are better ways to channel anger than CD.
Yes...you do.
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Old 01-29-2024, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,540 posts, read 6,188,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
You don't have agree with my tongue-in-check post. It's a big world with lots of ideas. You do you!

LearnMe,

Science will be used to justify horrible things. It's not religion or science, people that are the problem.

It's like when my son was in preschool, everything began a gun. A stick or a paint bush became a gun. Like many boys in his age group, it was a compulsion. Thankfully, some people grown out of it and unfortunately, many don't. There are always going to be a group of people who will use any rational to guillotine their opposition.

After your last post, why you are so angry over CD? After the 2014 Israel-Palestinian conflict, I went to services at a Quaker Church because of their belief in nonviolence. There are better ways to channel anger than CD.

What specifically are you seeing that came across as 'angry' in LearnMe's posts?
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Old 01-30-2024, 09:45 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,780,738 times
Reputation: 3481
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
You don't have agree with my tongue-in-check post. It's a big world with lots of ideas. You do you!

LearnMe,

Science will be used to justify horrible things. It's not religion or science, people that are the problem.

It's like when my son was in preschool, everything began a gun. A stick or a paint bush became a gun. Like many boys in his age group, it was a compulsion. Thankfully, some people grown out of it and unfortunately, many don't. There are always going to be a group of people who will use any rational to guillotine their opposition.

After your last post, why you are so angry over CD? After the 2014 Israel-Palestinian conflict, I went to services at a Quaker Church because of their belief in nonviolence. There are better ways to channel anger than CD.
YorktownGal,

Anything can be used to justify horrible things, but I'm trying to focus on what most intelligent, reasonable and mature people might be able to agree upon about all the options we have to choose from. Including what we can learn, avoid and/or do given all we have to consider and for all concerned. More specifically, what examples have you in mind when you explain "science will be used to justify horrible things?"

These sorts of generalities without specifics don't help much, and I'm not sure I follow your son in preschool/gun example either. Unless you are explaining the obvious about how most of us intelligent, reasonable and mature people "grow out" of certain things we do and think as children. I used to play with guns too. Just as I used to believe in God and do as good Christian/Catholics do. No more because I came to appreciate better options as I grew up and learned what else there was to learn.

Just because "there are always going to be a group of people who will ______(fill in the blank), does NOT mean the thinking and doing of those people is right, better or should be promoted when it comes to all concerned. Right? Not sure I understand this rationale either, but I am no stranger to the realities we are all forced to contend with thanks to other people. Thanks to other people "behaving badly" but contend with them we must.

I'm certainly not angry, and I am also not sure what gives you that impression, but the effort to mischaracterize my comments like you do as well strikes me as the same old agenda to draw attention from the actual points or truths of these matters. It's the validity of the points, arguments and/or perspective I prefer to focus upon. Not anyone's emotions. I'd like to think I am very calmly and unemotionally making these points, including my Ten Truths. For you and anyone else to consider as you might. Nothing more and nothing less.

Not angry in any case, and like you, there are many other ways I go about channeling my feelings about this and other issues outside of C-D. This is just a forum that allows me to "scratch an itch" about certain issues involving religion and politics that I enjoy doing for a bit most mornings. I also have strong opinions and feelings about what is going on in the Middle East, but I can't do much more than express opinion about that too. Amounting to little more than venting generally speaking. About how religion does affect all of us one way or another. Directly and indirectly. In very profound ways both good and bad.

Simple as that really, and about this as well, I don't think most intelligent, reasonable and mature people would disagree. Some are just more inclined to deny and/or accept the bad than others however. That's yet another issue we might go on about if we thought it might make a difference, but what makes the difference really?

Far as C-D is concerned, nothing really. I know this well...

Last edited by LearnMe; 01-30-2024 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 01-30-2024, 10:11 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,780,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are not reading carefully enough. The misuse is arrogantly trying to IMPOSE what we THINK we know about God on anyone else but ourselves that is the issue, NOT belief in God, per se. We have legitimate secular reasons for some things but God alone is NOT a legitimate reason to impose on others.
I think I am reading quite carefully enough, and that perhaps you are not reading or considering the alternative reason and logic that begins at a bit more fundamental level, but I'm not sure how to overcome that issue given your perspective.

I don't know how to make clear where, when and how I hold people responsible for what they think and do "in the name of" whatever they think like you do. More fundamentally, beginning with the simple notion or acceptance that people know ANYTHING about God.

You see, the moment we open that door, we are opening the door for anyone and everyone to make whatever claims they want to make. It's after we open that door that we go on to either IMPOSE or misuse or abuse or do whatever we do as individuals or groups that -- for all practical purposes -- are baseless from the get go.

Perhaps a different example might serve to better make the point here...

Say you are in a very dry area of forest where the the risk of fire is extreme. Where any and all flames are likely to cause a serious and dangerous fire. High risk in any case. Someone nevertheless insists on lighting a match anyway. Arguing they know what they are doing and they are not imposing themselves on anyone else. Not a risk of danger or anything else. All good intentions, and maybe they don't actually cause a fire, but what is the better advice for all concerned regardless?

Everyone can and should be able to ignite sparks of their choosing, because they THINK they know what they are doing? We shouldn't question why the spark is necessary in the first place? Given the risks that can and do follow? The better advice is not to create ANY risk of a spark to begin with? To prevent risk of a fire for all concerned? No matter what anyone may THINK to the contrary? IOWs, the need to create a spark is unnecessary to begin with, and the risk of the fire exists no matter who is thinking to create a spark of any kind.

You and others seem to think it's okay for you and others to do as you wish as you "play with fire" in these ways, while I'm saying play with something else for crying out loud. We should not all be victim of the risks you DO pose as you THINK whatever you do. You do IMPOSE your way of thinking in this way. Not that any ONE of you might start a dangerous fire, but all of you as a group certainly pose that significant risk! So why not everyone just put down their matches?

I'm with Smokey the Bear on this one! And he's asking nicely...
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Old 01-30-2024, 01:34 PM
 
63,977 posts, read 40,262,899 times
Reputation: 7891
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are not reading carefully enough. The misuse is arrogantly trying to IMPOSE what we THINK we know about God on anyone else but ourselves that is the issue, NOT belief in God, per se. We have legitimate secular reasons for some things but God alone is NOT a legitimate reason to impose on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I think I am reading quite carefully enough, and that perhaps you are not reading or considering the alternative reason and logic that begins at a bit more fundamental level, but I'm not sure how to overcome that issue given your perspective.

I don't know how to make clear where, when and how I hold people responsible for what they think and do "in the name of" whatever they think like you do. More fundamentally, beginning with the simple notion or acceptance that people know ANYTHING about God.

You see, the moment we open that door, we are opening the door for anyone and everyone to make whatever claims they want to make. It's after we open that door that we go on to either IMPOSE or misuse or abuse or do whatever we do as individuals or groups that -- for all practical purposes -- are baseless from the get go.

Perhaps a different example might serve to better make the point here...

Say you are in a very dry area of forest where the the risk of fire is extreme. Where any and all flames are likely to cause a serious and dangerous fire. High risk in any case. Someone nevertheless insists on lighting a match anyway. Arguing they know what they are doing and they are not imposing themselves on anyone else. Not a risk of danger or anything else. All good intentions, and maybe they don't actually cause a fire, but what is the better advice for all concerned regardless?

Everyone can and should be able to ignite sparks of their choosing, because they THINK they know what they are doing? We shouldn't question why the spark is necessary in the first place? Given the risks that can and do follow? The better advice is not to create ANY risk of a spark to begin with? To prevent risk of a fire for all concerned? No matter what anyone may THINK to the contrary? IOWs, the need to create a spark is unnecessary to begin with, and the risk of the fire exists no matter who is thinking to create a spark of any kind.

You and others seem to think it's okay for you and others to do as you wish as you "play with fire" in these ways, while I'm saying play with something else for crying out loud. We should not all be victim of the risks you DO pose as you THINK whatever you do. You do IMPOSE your way of thinking in this way. Not that any ONE of you might start a dangerous fire, but all of you as a group certainly pose that significant risk! So why not everyone just put down their matches?

I'm with Smokey the Bear on this one! And he's asking nicely...
We cannot do anything about what people THINK about anything, LearnMe. But we have to try when it involves pragmatic things like your example of the risk of fire. But when it comes to purely spiritual things (like the notion of "sins") they are and must remain none of our business because they are between each individual and their concept of God (or lack thereof). It does seem to me that removing "imposition" and achieving that level of isolation of God-belief is possible societally but not its eradication. Sadly, the eradication option seems to be the only one you consider because of your atheism.
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:27 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,780,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We cannot do anything about what people THINK about anything, LearnMe. But we have to try when it involves pragmatic things like your example of the risk of fire. But when it comes to purely spiritual things (like the notion of "sins") they are and must remain none of our business because they are between each individual and their concept of God (or lack thereof). It does seem to me that removing "imposition" and achieving that level of isolation of God-belief is possible societally but not its eradication. Sadly, the eradication option seems to be the only one you consider because of your atheism.
I don't think we'd be having this discussion or that I would have written up my Ten Truths if what you call "none of our business" was kept a private matter. If it were, I wouldn't even know about it let alone recognize how all of us are affected one way or another in rather profound ways because what you describe as "none of our business" becomes our business and not because of our choosing.

I have no great expectations or even minimal expectations about any sort of eradication in any case. Only a hope that the next generation will do better than the one before. Generation after generation long after we're gone. More in line with what I call the "slow maturing of man." That's all.
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Old 01-31-2024, 04:30 PM
 
63,977 posts, read 40,262,899 times
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Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I don't think we'd be having this discussion or that I would have written up my Ten Truths if what you call "none of our business" was kept a private matter. If it were, I wouldn't even know about it let alone recognize how all of us are affected one way or another in rather profound ways because what you describe as "none of our business" becomes our business and not because of our choosing.

I have no great expectations or even minimal expectations about any sort of eradication in any case. Only a hope that the next generation will do better than the one before. Generation after generation long after we're gone. More in line with what I call the "slow maturing of man." That's all.
Then I think we do not significantly disagree. I would suggest that your inclusion of God-belief in your quest for "universal truth" is a mirage. The universality of what people THINK about God (or not) has no conceivable chance of occurring in any conceivable future. Secular and similar matters subject to scientific scrutiny have difficulty achieving any such "universality." However, I must resonate with your desires for your Ten Truths since I sought to apply science to God-belief.
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Old 02-01-2024, 11:11 AM
 
29,566 posts, read 9,780,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then I think we do not significantly disagree. I would suggest that your inclusion of God-belief in your quest for "universal truth" is a mirage. The universality of what people THINK about God (or not) has no conceivable chance of occurring in any conceivable future. Secular and similar matters subject to scientific scrutiny have difficulty achieving any such "universality." However, I must resonate with your desires for your Ten Truths since I sought to apply science to God-belief.
I'm not sure I follow, and I don't see any such issue when it comes to the universal truths we all already recognize as true for all of us without debate, friction or issue. For all concerned. All the rest that lends toward debate, friction and conflict, I prefer to avoid in terms of any form of promotion. No more, no less and rather simple as that for me anyway. Again when it comes to the rest of mankind, I've got no great expectations for progress anytime soon or within my lifetime. Only what I think will help foster progress over the very long haul by way of what I call "the slow maturing of man."
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Old 02-01-2024, 11:22 AM
 
63,977 posts, read 40,262,899 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then I think we do not significantly disagree. I would suggest that your inclusion of God-belief in your quest for "universal truth" is a mirage. The universality of what people THINK about God (or not) has no conceivable chance of occurring in any conceivable future. Secular and similar matters subject to scientific scrutiny have difficulty achieving any such "universality." However, I must resonate with your desires for your Ten Truths since I sought to apply science to God-belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I'm not sure I follow, and I don't see any such issue when it comes to the universal truths we all already recognize as true for all of us without debate, friction or issue. For all concerned. All the rest that lends toward debate, friction and conflict, I prefer to avoid in terms of any form of promotion. No more, no less and rather simple as that for me anyway. Again when it comes to the rest of mankind, I've got no great expectations for progress anytime soon or within my lifetime. Only what I think will help foster progress over the very long haul by way of what I call "the slow maturing of man."
We agree, LeranMe. What you seek to avoid "debate, friction, and conflict," exists even within secular matters subject to science (eg. climate change) but it is "universally" applicable to God-belief and will remain so for any foreseeable future, IMO.
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