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Old 09-23-2019, 09:40 AM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
I try not to be too wordy and let the conversation take form, my paradigm will be Christian, so with that said...

My personal reality exist in two states. One in the flesh one in the spirit. Knowledge is different from knowing. Knowledge is what Dave learned from the world. Knowing is what my spirit is aware of. Both require exercise to develop. Spiritual development is present for all. Spiritual development helps with discernment of what is true. I call that wisdom.

Knowledge and Wisdom
Dave,

Thank you. Very well put, but I'm not sure if your comment here is the beginning or end of what you might further think about these truths more specifically, and of course if your "paradigm will be Christian" (as any Christian who considers these truths will share), then perhaps there is no point in further discussion. I really don't know...

To use your words, my "paradigm" is one that considers all of us, Christian or not, and how we might go about systematically establishing a criteria or basis on which we might evaluate all there is to consider. From the Bible to the Koran to what science is teaching us about our universal truth.

I suspect you also know there are millions of people who have developed spirituality and come to believe or be aware of spirits very different from what you claim to be "knowing." My truths have to do with what most people might agree is the best way to reconcile these differences.

Very different from each individual simply claiming what they "know" regardless what everyone else claims they too "know."

Accordingly, is the conversation "taking form" far as you are concerned or ended?
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Old 09-23-2019, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Florida
15,033 posts, read 9,943,088 times
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I can't see through any other lens other than of one of a Christian... and then as an engineer. However that doesn't mean I've become blind, intellectually speaking. Any philosophy that requires anyone to check your brain at the door, or deny who and what I/we are, is not worthy. We have to be ourselves, 'cause everyone else it taken.

I've ended nothing. I'm right here. Don't tell me why I'm wrong... tell me why you're right.
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Old 09-23-2019, 02:31 PM
 
1,378 posts, read 397,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
TEN TRUTHS

ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
Every person has a unique jumble of ideas that form their views on reality. And science has no clue what reality is yet. They are simply like kids pulling things apart to see how it works. They haven't found all the answers yet & have no credibility when talking about spiritual matters.

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TWO: Human beings cannot know all that exists in the universe. The universe is forever in flux, full of mystery that will forever be marveled and explored by Man as long as he survives.
Well they know God exists & they all have different ways of looking at God. Science is trying to pull apart God's creation to see how it works but they are nowhere near discovering the truth yet & so their opinions are just nonsense.

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THREE: The first reality for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the world;
Spiritual things are more important than material things but you won't know that till you are standing naked before God.

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FOUR: The second reality, all that exists in the universe, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology).
History books are basically false news designed for political or religious leader's purposes, & science has no idea what reality is. They are just guessing & if you blindly believe them then you are gullible.

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FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate ....
Faith comes from learning that other people accomplished something impossible, against all odds. If they could do it then so can you. All you need is faith (belief that it is possible if you remain positive).

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SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical guides Man to further scientific discovery. However, when conjecture about the supernatural leads to faith and religious inculcation rather facts, reason and logic, great harm can and does come to Man instead.
Science theorised that placing uranium into babies milk would turn them into Super-Humans. Science has destroyed Mother Earth with its theories. They are still theorising that they can survive if they can just make it to a dark cave on mars. They are morons. Religion leads people to also make wrong decisions. Jesus was not religious in the accepted sense of the times. He did whatever He had to do to be loving & kind to people & lead them to God 'regardless of what the religion of the times said about the matter. Love & kindness is the correct religion & anything which is opposite of that is opposite of true religion.

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SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit spiritual conjecture is to foster a greater respect for the truth as currently defined or understood by science.
Science obeys governments & their agendas. Trillions of scientific discoveries are kept hidden or burnt to prevent people from knowing them. Spiritual beings are recorded on camera & caught speaking on tape & that is all hidden from you even though it is pure scientific knowledge of the spiritual world. So science is used to control you & keep you dumb, & is not your ticket to total knowledge of all that is. You are its puppet & it is the puppet of the governments etc.
Look at ufo videos & you will see supremely advanced spaceships flying around our caveman-like jets & studying us. And science pretends that spaceships are not real. Scientists are idiots. No offence intended.

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EIGHT: Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans. Faith forbids followers to question.....
All science is first adopted by the military to advance their strengths. You are not permitted to have any science until the military says you can have it. So, No, science does not foster universal peace. It simply maintains wars & makes them more destructive than before.

And Jesus questioned all religious dictations & went His own way. And He said we will do greater things than He. So you are free to question any religious statement if it seems erroneous to you in some way.

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NINE: Faith can and does promote goodwill between some people.... a code of conduct necessary for some to be moral. ...

Truth is best realized and peace most successfully promoted .... by science. ... proven or yet to be proven.
Science creates weaponry & toxins that have destroyed the world. Everyone is returning to God sooner than later as a result of science's blunders. People get help from the latest gadget but the enemy is using the same gadget to kill them. So people are going to return to God in the sky sooner or later & they all know it. So they are not going to give up their beliefs in a higher power just because some scientist wants to explore the universe on his/her own without God by his/her side.

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TEN: People of faith will deny if not condemn these truths ... ego and bigotry all prevent objective reason and logic to prevail .
Well that is your own truth & is not other people's truths. You are basically on your own with God & your microscopic scientific understanding of creation. In my opinion
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:09 PM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn View Post
I can't see through any other lens other than of one of a Christian... and then as an engineer. However that doesn't mean I've become blind, intellectually speaking. Any philosophy that requires anyone to check your brain at the door, or deny who and what I/we are, is not worthy. We have to be ourselves, 'cause everyone else it taken.

I've ended nothing. I'm right here. Don't tell me why I'm wrong... tell me why you're right.
I thought it was you who was going to let me know your opinion about my truths, this thread, and if this is it, then I guess I over-estimated what more or what else you might have to offer more specifically...

None of us can really see through other than our own "lens," but as you say, this isn't the same as being blind or not able to apply critical thinking, objectivity. On the other hand, sometimes the lens is so badly distorted, any real chance for intelligent critical thinking and objective is mostly impossible. I can't tell if that's the case here, but if forced to do the opposite and critique your comments rather than you critique my ten truths, I'd say this sort of turning of the tables is plenty evasive.

More specifically or to the point, these truths I'd suggest you consider a little more pointedly does in part attempt to demonstrate where and/or how you are wrong about being an adherent to any religion and why. Can you at least identify which truth(s) explain this and how you disagree with that rational that argues for a more common acceptance of our universal truths and thus avoids unnecessary conflict, violence and even war?

PS: My son is also an engineer. A civil engineer. You?
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:20 PM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocean777 View Post
Every person has a unique jumble of ideas that form their views on reality. And science has no clue what reality is yet. They are simply like kids pulling things apart to see how it works. They haven't found all the answers yet & have no credibility when talking about spiritual matters.
I appreciate your interest and effort to take these truths on as you have here, but to be perfectly honest, I have read many of your comments, and I find you argue a "reason and logic" that doesn't translate too well as reason and logic to me...

Here right off too, while I thought maybe your pointed approach might be worth considering, to start by explaining "science has no clue what reality is yet" just smacks of ridiculous beyond reason, and I don't know how to respond to such a thing or if I should.

You certainly misunderstand my truths about this, or if you can't very easily recognize all that science has helped us understand about so much, again there is no hope far as I'm concerned for intelligent discussion about any of this.

Best I can think to do in the most honest and civil manner possible is to suggest you read this fascinating non-fiction account of how science has helped us learn what we know so far...

"A Brief History of Creation: Science and the Search for the Origin of Life," by Bill Mesler and H. James Cleaves II

Not sure you are able to read such a book objectively or that you will understand any better than you do my truths, but this is what I suggest you do either way. You should also please understand that there is both what science has been able to reveal to us so far in the way of our universal truths and of course there is still so much still to learn. What we still don't know doesn't negate what we do. Nor does our lack of knowledge negate what important roll science continues to play in this respect despite the many ways that religion continues to hold back progress for still too many humans on the planet. Even still to this day, but hey! Has hardly been about 150 years since science was even a thing...
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,180 posts, read 26,326,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Has hardly been about 150 years since science was even a thing...
Science, which is basically how things work, has been in evidence forever, albeit, it didn't have a 'name'.
When primitive man realized that fire could burn the skin of a person but could also cook meat to be tastier...that was 'science'.

When primitive man witnessed his "cave mates" getting sick from eating certain 'green things'...that was 'science' in his early unnamed experience.

Religious connection?
Jews and their pork. Made sense then, no longer does.
The same applies to way too many religious prohibitions or biases.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:39 PM
 
1,378 posts, read 397,284 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I find you argue a "reason and logic" that doesn't translate too well as reason and logic to me...

.... just smacks of ridiculous beyond reason, and I don't know how to respond ..
You certainly misunderstand my truths ... there is no hope ..

... non-fiction account of how science has helped us learn what we know so far...

......
Well I've seen gigantic intelligent ufo's & so have millions of other people & yet science mocks such things. Science is an absolute ignorant monster. An ignorant, cretinous, immoral & corrupt monster that is using its power to keep people in absolute ignorance & darkness. So I won't waste my time reading its big book of absolute garbage. But thank you anyway
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
15,033 posts, read 9,943,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I thought it was you who was going to let me know your opinion about my truths, this thread, and if this is it, then I guess I over-estimated what more or what else you might have to offer more specifically...

None of us can really see through other than our own "lens," but as you say, this isn't the same as being blind or not able to apply critical thinking, objectivity. On the other hand, sometimes the lens is so badly distorted, any real chance for intelligent critical thinking and objective is mostly impossible. I can't tell if that's the case here, but if forced to do the opposite and critique your comments rather than you critique my ten truths, I'd say this sort of turning of the tables is plenty evasive.

More specifically or to the point, these truths I'd suggest you consider a little more pointedly does in part attempt to demonstrate where and/or how you are wrong about being an adherent to any religion and why. Can you at least identify which truth(s) explain this and how you disagree with that rational that argues for a more common acceptance of our universal truths and thus avoids unnecessary conflict, violence and even war?

PS: My son is also an engineer. A civil engineer. You?
You seem full of doubt to me. First you thought my Christian perspective would almost disqualify me from my ability to think, critically. Then you say "I may have over estimated you" me ?? then my lens might be cloudy and my intellect would be distorted, and now I've turned the tables and I'm avoiding something. In addition you've now said your intent is to "demonstrate" I'm wrong. That seems to be a litany of excuses.

Reality.... I'm here for the third time, ready to discuss-debate and not to argue who's right or wrong. I'm making my case and I've invited you to make yours, repeatedly.

There are universal truths. We are all created. Every person is unique. We all have needs to keep us alive in our bodies and minds. I call it the flesh and the spirit. Every answer already exists. Experiences equal knowledge. The present is knowing and of the mind. Imagination and faith are forward looking.

There's more...

My education was Marine Engineering and has little to with my working days. I retired from an electric utility.
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:33 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,143 posts, read 20,925,474 times
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Dave, you and Learn me seem to be groping around matters that have been looked at in past posts, notably in discussions with Mystic and Gaylenwoof on the philosophic end of science, such as body and 'spirit' (or the intangible or unexplained aspects of humans), and the nature of reality and the remoteness or subjectivity of human perception.

The result of this (so far as I was concerned - the other two might disagree) is that reality exists on its' own terms, science is a method for validating it and correcting the errors of human limited perception, and that what can't be explained in terms of engineering, either mineral or biological, are the things of the 'spirit' and are increasingly being explained in biological terms. Even religion.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:06 AM
 
7,681 posts, read 4,217,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post

ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
Is it okay to discuss your ten truths in a practical sense? For example: Universal truth: We all live on planet Earth. Personal reality: Some people live better lives than others on Earth.
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