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Old 08-31-2020, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,393 posts, read 24,773,097 times
Reputation: 33260

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
There are many sources for these data. As is usually the case, results depend on how the questions are asked (and understood), what is their area of science ("scientists" are not a monolithic group, any more than believers), what is the source (academic journals versus laypress), what country, and so on. Here is a sampling...

https://evolution-outreach.biomedcen...1936-6434-6-33

https://www.nature.com/articles/28478

https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldw...cientists.html

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/...united-states/

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/...ts-and-belief/

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publi...ntists-believe

Scientists tend as a group to be less religious (however that term might be construed) than the general population. About 64 percent of the respondents described themselves as atheists or agnostics, as against only about 6 percent of the general public. “Looked at the other way around,” Ecklund writes, “only about 9 percent of scientists say they have no doubt that God exists, compared to well over 60 percent of the general public.” As far as religious practice is concerned, “about 18 percent of scientists attend religious services at least once a month or more, compared to about 46 percent of those in the general population.”

[ETA: I see Phetaroi provided one of these same links, while I was typing, but will leave the list intact]
Here's what I think the bottom line is -- scientists tend to be more objective.

Back in the 1970s, when I was a geosciences student learning all that radical and evil evolution stuff, every one of my geology professors was a christian, and attended church at varying degrees, some rather faithfully. But they all seemed to be able to separate their religion from their science.

Back a while, someone doubted I -- as a student -- would know what a professor's basic religious stance was. I don't see why that's surprising when a group of 20 students and a professor or two spend several days together, every once in a while, out in the field collecting fossils, dining together during those field trips, and having long conversations related to evolution.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:12 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,674,035 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
so 59% of scientists believe in a god or a higher power.
this is just Americans?
if done in asia the number will be higher. there is no conflict with science in many religions.
its more like we know we are in a really complex system. And if we are alive, what does that make the system?

also there is an issue of size. On earth, sure, most will agree that "alive" fits the biosphere. The line will be drawn at organism. It doesn't look like one. And if it is, it looks like its the only one near here. So it would be awful alone. to a human, its plenty big enough to be mistaken as "everlasting and forever".

Many, I would say far more than half think we are, at the very least, the universe experiencing itself.

And any scientist worth his weight in a science textbooks knows the universe made cell phones.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:14 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,674,035 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Here's what I think the bottom line is -- scientists tend to be more objective.

Back in the 1970s, when I was a geosciences student learning all that radical and evil evolution stuff, every one of my geology professors was a christian, and attended church at varying degrees, some rather faithfully. But they all seemed to be able to separate their religion from their science.

Back a while, someone doubted I -- as a student -- would know what a professor's basic religious stance was. I don't see why that's surprising when a group of 20 students and a professor or two spend several days together, every once in a while, out in the field collecting fossils, dining together during those field trips, and having long conversations related to evolution.
you mean they separated their feelings from facts? they could could keep heads about them no matter how they felt about something?

truth first phet ... anti-christian second ... maybe you should try it.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:17 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,674,035 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster View Post
There are many sources for these data. As is usually the case, results depend on how the questions are asked (and understood), what is their area of science ("scientists" are not a monolithic group, any more than believers), what is the source (academic journals versus laypress), what country, and so on. Here is a sampling, including a couple extracts.....

https://evolution-outreach.biomedcen...1936-6434-6-33

https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldw...cientists.html

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/...united-states/

https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/...ts-and-belief/

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publi...ntists-believe

Scientists tend as a group to be less religious (however that term might be construed) than the general population. About 64 percent of the respondents described themselves as atheists or agnostics, as against only about 6 percent of the general public. “Looked at the other way around,” Ecklund writes, “only about 9 percent of scientists say they have no doubt that God exists, compared to well over 60 percent of the general public.” As far as religious practice is concerned, “about 18 percent of scientists attend religious services at least once a month or more, compared to about 46 percent of those in the general population.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/28478



[ETA: I see Phetaroi provided one of these same links, while I was typing, but will leave the list intact]
we really need to say what god.

I say the biosphere matches "alive" more than not alive. some atheist call me a wannabe theist for saying so.

How many scientist would agree to that statement about the biosphere? How many would understand that maybe thats what they are feeling connected to. and dare I say, way over stating it? Like so far overstating it its almost laughable well, we do at times don't we.

how many understand we are the universe experiencing itself?

how many understand that the universe created everything we see feel, and hold true?

How many would agree that the more the traits of god line up with the known traits of the universe the more valid the claim becomes?

Know you and I know the deity thing goes away ... but not everything spiritual people say does.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:38 PM
 
22,850 posts, read 19,468,156 times
Reputation: 18751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
we really need to say what god.
I say the biosphere matches "alive" more than not alive. some atheist call me a wannabe theist for saying so.
How many scientist would agree to that statement about the biosphere? How many would understand that maybe thats what they are feeling connected to. and dare I say, way over stating it? Like so far overstating it its almost laughable well, we do at times don't we.

how many understand we are the universe experiencing itself?
how many understand that the universe created everything we see feel, and hold true?
How many would agree that the more the traits of god line up with the known traits of the universe the more valid the claim becomes?
Know you and I know the deity thing goes away ... but not everything spiritual people say does.
the universe is a collection of a bunch of stuff.
a collection of stuff doesn't create itself.

any more than a batch of cookies bakes itself.
or the batch of cookies creates the baker.

swapping out the Creator for the universe doesn't work Arach.
that's what the statements in the post above sound like, just substituting the universe for the Creator.
and you state your personal agenda right there in the same post, it is to get rid of God, in your own words "the deity thing goes away."

it's like revisionist history. wipe it out. erase it. call it something else. claim it never existed.
this is the religion and spirituality forum. In paths of religion and spirituality, God and spirit and divinity and the sacred are recognized, acknowledged, discussed, and embraced.

the universe is not religion and spirituality. it is a collection of stuff.
making god go away is not religion and spirituality. it is your personal emotion-driven aversion to god and intolerance of god. intolerance to the point of seeking to annihilate it and remove it and erase it. it is an extreme form of intolerance, to try an annihilate that which you have an aversion to.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-31-2020 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:49 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,674,035 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the universe is a collection of a bunch of stuff.
a collection of stuff doesn't create itself.

any more than a batch of cookies bakes itself.
or the batch of cookies creates the baker.

swapping out the Creator for the universe doesn't work Arach.
that's what the statements in the post above sound like, just substituting the universe for the Creator.
and you state your personal agenda right there in the same post, it is to get rid of God, in your own words "the deity thing goes away."

it's like revisionist history. wipe it out. erase it. call it something else. claim it never existed.
this is the religion and spirituality forum. In paths of religion and spirituality, God and spirit and divinity are recognized, acknowledged, discussed, and embraced.

the universe is not religion and spirituality. it is a collection of stuff.
you first statement of "a collection of stuff doesn't create itself." lets look at what science does say ...

there are many scientist that think "something" may have very well created the universe. Some might, a fair amount actually, would even see "born" as, on the "ok, maybe side." but no proof at all of it.

so something is the question. What is this something? well, we don't know so a jewish, christian, Muslim deity is just...well ...whatever.

you last line is you making a claim that counter actual observation., So I can't even modify for you. Its just flat wrong. Sometimes, a tire just needs to be changed.
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Old 08-31-2020, 07:54 PM
 
22,850 posts, read 19,468,156 times
Reputation: 18751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
you first statement of "a collection of stuff doesn't create itself." lets look at what science does say ...there are many scientist that think "something" may have very well created the universe. Some might, a fair amount actually, would even see "born" as, on the "ok, maybe side." but no proof at all of it.so something is the question. What is this something? well, we don't know so a jewish, christian, Muslim deity is just...well ...whatever. you last line is you making a claim that counter actual observation., So I can't even modify for you. Its just flat wrong. Sometimes, a tire just needs to be changed.
if you want to talk about science
then do that in the science forum


if you want to talk about the Creator of the universe then that is very much related to paths of religion and spirituality.
paths of religion and spirituality also contain a great deal of actual observations.
you are perceptive (and i applaud you for it) in noticing and remarking how some people's "agenda" is to be anti-religion. either all religion or this or that religion. my observation is a similar agenda in many of your posts, anti-god, get rid of god, can't be god. ok to have something but not god.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-31-2020 at 08:09 PM..
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:07 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,674,035 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
if you want to talk about science
then do that in the science forum


if you want to talk about the Creator of the universe then that is very much related to paths of religion and spirituality.
paths of religion and spirituality also contain a great deal of actual observations.
no, this is a religion and spirituality forum. and thats what I am talking about.

only people trying to cover up clearly less valid claims run from science. anti-godfaith and deity can't face the full weight of science.

spirituality can ... easily.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:25 PM
 
22,850 posts, read 19,468,156 times
Reputation: 18751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
no, this is a religion and spirituality forum. and thats what I am talking about.only people trying to cover up clearly less valid claims run from science. anti-godfaith and deity can't face the full weight of science.spirituality can ... easily.
science is irrelevant to conversations about religion and spirituality.
just like politics is irrelevant to conversations about religion and spirituality.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,393 posts, read 24,773,097 times
Reputation: 33260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
science is irrelevant to conversations about religion and spirituality.
just like politics is irrelevant to conversations about religion and spirituality.
Science is not irrelevant to conversations about religion and spirituality, but certain posters bring it into far too many discussions.

You yourself brought (your version of) medicine into a conversation just about 24 hours ago.

Where science can be useful to religion and spirituality is in situations where unanswered questions can be studied by (for example) archaeologists. The Shroud Of Turin is a good example.

But yes, science is brought into religion far too often, and frankly, it's fake science by religionists that is often what is brought into the discussion (such as "creation science").
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