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Old 09-05-2020, 09:42 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
While rejecting Faith (without or in spite of, decent evidence) as a good reason to believe anything is nothing worth arguing about (apart from semantic fiddling with 'belief' and 'faith' which are not the same ideas), Evidence is what it comes down to in the end. It's about what is valid evidence. Anecdotes are or aren't really where 'extraordinary claims' are involved. 'My wife got ua pet dog' and 'My brother in law lost a leg, we all prayed to Jesus and it grew back' is.
Because one is familiar and a common event, and there is no reason to doubt it, especially as no agenda is being served and it makes no difference to the rational worldview. Miracle claims, let alone interpreted as evidence for this religion or that, is a different matter.

This oughtn't to be hard to understand. I have used the analogy of the council for defence asking that the murder case be dismissed because 'nobody observed it' (yep, we heard that before) and the evidence of the bullet etc. be dismissed because God could have put it there.

"God?"

"Well, the devil, if you prefer." (1)

No court would entertain that because such things do not happen. And that is a valid thing to say. Thus miracle anecdotes cannot be accepted, even if we suppose that the person telling them really believes what they are saying.

Even when miraculous escapes are recorded, They are 'unexplained' rather than a validated miracle. I won't go into the endless string of remarkable coincidences trotted out as some kind of proof of Christianity (the saving of a christian couple from sea by a bot with a vaguely religious name was the last one I recall), but I'll repeat the compilation video of amazing snooker -shots that ar a lucky (or unlucky) accident, but just as remarkable as some of those lucky escapes. And note the permanent tendency for the believer to ascribe anything to the workings of Jesus.

(1) I have in mind the Excuse of Creationism for fossils in ancient rocks that God put them these to mislead people. Or if that's doesn't put God in a good light, Satan.
So as fairly and objectively as you can be, take the most intelligent able-minded religious people out there, and how would you explain their faith despite the evidence you and I might feel adequately proves their faith to be unfounded?

I've started threads about "why we believe what we do," but you seem to boil it down to something more simple. How would you put it?
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Old 09-05-2020, 09:45 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
lets use an example that isnt a deity to show what I mean:

The claim that some people think we are in a more complex system and call it god.
Say what???
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Old 09-05-2020, 09:46 AM
 
15,997 posts, read 7,048,534 times
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Evidence is not truth.
Evidence of that is hung jury. Truth could not be found inspite of.
Evidence of that are people released from years of imprisonment due to new evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment on cooked up evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment based on whether you have bail money or not. Not truth.
Someone labeled criminal is not even enough evidence, much less truth.
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Old 09-05-2020, 09:54 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Evidence is not truth.
Evidence of that is hung jury. Truth could not be found inspite of.
Evidence of that are people released from years of imprisonment due to new evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment on cooked up evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment based on whether you have bail money or not. Not truth.
Someone labeled criminal is not even enough evidence, much less truth.
You are muddying the waters of truth...

Evidence is just that. Evidence.
A hung jury can occur despite the truth.
Sometimes the truth cannot be found or determined for any number of reasons, but the truth exists regardless.
The truth always exists.
Do not confuse evidence with truth, or man's inability to accurately determine the truth.
Bail money is an even further removed example having nothing to do with truth.

"Three things cannot be long hidden. The sun, the moon and the truth." - Buddha
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Old 09-05-2020, 10:17 AM
 
15,997 posts, read 7,048,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You are muddying the waters of truth...

Evidence is just that. Evidence.
A hung jury can occur despite the truth.
Sometimes the truth cannot be found or determined for any number of reasons, but the truth exists regardless.
The truth always exists.
Do not confuse evidence with truth, or man's inability to accurately determine the truth.
Bail money is an even further removed example having nothing to do with truth.

"Three things cannot be long hidden. The sun, the moon and the truth." - Buddha
Quote:
ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
What is the universal truth, that second reality that truly exists, based on?
(Gotta love that truth that truly exists)
And if the universal truth that truly exists is true, then is the perceived truth, our personal truth ... is what? not true?
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Old 09-05-2020, 10:54 AM
 
29,552 posts, read 9,742,721 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
What is the universal truth, that second reality that truly exists, based on?
(Gotta love that truth that truly exists)
And if the universal truth that truly exists is true, then is the perceived truth, our personal truth ... is what? not true?
Having fun are you?

I have answered this question many times, and every time it puzzles me that I need explain this simple fact again...

Universal truth is what is fact, true, for all of us. No matter whether we recognize the truth or not.

I know it gets a little challenging to distinguish what I describe in my first truth, but I like to think I do a good enough job trying to distinguish the difference between one's personal truth/reality as we perceive it to be vs what is "truly" true. AKA our universal truth. Thee universal truth, for all of us the same.
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:12 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
So as fairly and objectively as you can be, take the most intelligent able-minded religious people out there, and how would you explain their faith despite the evidence you and I might feel adequately proves their faith to be unfounded?

I've started threads about "why we believe what we do," but you seem to boil it down to something more simple. How would you put it?
Cultural indoctrination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Evidence is not truth.
Evidence of that is hung jury. Truth could not be found inspite of.
Evidence of that are people released from years of imprisonment due to new evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment on cooked up evidence. Not truth.
Cases of imprisonment based on whether you have bail money or not. Not truth.
Someone labeled criminal is not even enough evidence, much less truth.
Abandoning the legal system because it sometimes goes wrong, not a god idea.

I posted once about the limits o the legal system compared to science (the producer of the evidence we are talking about here0 and that the trial is ongoing and, if i takes a decade or two to get an answer, or a better answer, that is not a reason to propose disregarding it in favour of faith - based speculation.

If you are just pointing out the limitation, we know. If you are proposing that the evidence produced by (broadly) the 'sciences' is inadequate. It is on its' tack record, the best we have.
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:17 PM
 
63,857 posts, read 40,142,148 times
Reputation: 7882
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Having fun are you?

I have answered this question many times, and every time it puzzles me that I need explain this simple fact again...

Universal truth is what is fact, true, for all of us. No matter whether we recognize the truth or not.

I know it gets a little challenging to distinguish what I describe in my first truth, but I like to think I do a good enough job trying to distinguish the difference between one's personal truth/reality as we perceive it to be vs what is "truly" true. AKA our universal truth. Thee universal truth, for all of us the same.
Truth is true and always true. There is no other kind of truth. What are unreliable are our human methods of discerning the truth which produce errors. Unfortunately, the situation is inescapable so we must be satisfied with questionable truth! Consciousness is what muddies the waters. Our consciousness has an unconstrained ability to imagine. If, as I truly believe, our entire Reality is itself a product of God's consciousness (unified field) then we can NOT rule out that it is just in the imagination of God. This is also what makes the ideas about simulations, brains in a vat, super alien experiments, etc. etc. equally conceivable.That is what makes any truth we discover with our consciousness problematic.

It is entirely conceivable that our Reality is no more real than are our dreams or our imaginings. What we experience as Reality could just be a venue for eliciting in our consciousness the various emotions and cognitive responses we associate with concepts like love, kindness, gentleness, mercy, compassion, good and evil (morality). That would alleviate my angst about the "red in tooth and claw" nature of our Reality. And it would be consistent with the idea that God is only concerned with our state of mind (Spirit) NOT our physical or carnal concerns. Think about it.
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Old 09-05-2020, 12:29 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,757,440 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
What is the universal truth, that second reality that truly exists, based on?
(Gotta love that truth that truly exists)
And if the universal truth that truly exists is true, then is the perceived truth, our personal truth ... is what? not true?
We call it 'Reality' or 'Everything'. Some 'waggishly' call it 'God', which is unfortunate as some try to make that a Theistic claim, which it isn't
Science is the method we use to construct models of the reality that seem to fit the data. It confirms a lot, while modifying it (evolution, particle physics, cosmology) and the claims of religion seem to lose ground all the time (we call it shrinking gaps for God'). The 'perceived truth(s) - name you own) or personal truth is more or less likely to be true, depending on which sets of results we use as a basis.
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Old 09-05-2020, 02:56 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,597,400 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You are muddying the waters of truth...

Evidence is just that. Evidence.
A hung jury can occur despite the truth.
Sometimes the truth cannot be found or determined for any number of reasons, but the truth exists regardless.
The truth always exists.
Do not confuse evidence with truth, or man's inability to accurately determine the truth.
Bail money is an even further removed example having nothing to do with truth.

"Three things cannot be long hidden. The sun, the moon and the truth." - Buddha
boy budha was wrong.
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