Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-12-2019, 12:55 PM
 
21,869 posts, read 19,019,005 times
Reputation: 17980

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
What logic 8s there in believing that if you don't agree with what someone says then you must disagree with them. Sometimes you just don't accept what they said being so.

I said love was not truth but an emotiin. I don't understand how you can include that it must be a fiction if it is not a truth. Is football a truth or a fiction? My question makes no sense. There are things that are neither a truth or a fiction. Live, art, sports, happiness, sleeping.

Do you think sleep is a truth?

I don't care if the OP is an atheist or a fundamentalist religious zealot. I don't need to agree with all atheists, in fact a few are on my ignore list. And some Christians and Jews are in my friends list hence your pointing out the OP is an atheist is totally meaningless.
good. then if you don't agree with all theists, then recognize the flaw in saying "religious people say this" like they all say the same thing. and if it is meaningless to point out the OP is an atheist, then it is totally meaningless to point out someone is a religious person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
...love is truth or truth is love is what religious people say to try to convince the non religious that they are wrong or missing out on the truth which of course the truth has to be the it particular religion or favour of that religion. .

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-12-2019 at 01:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-12-2019, 12:56 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
then according to the logic used in the opening post if there is not a "truth" to love
then it is "fiction" and "false" and "nonsense"

that is the logic of the opening post. written by an atheist.
I hope after addressing this more specifically in my comments since the opening comment, you now better understand. Yes or no?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 12:59 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
Number Four leaves out the important groundwork that allows any progress at all in the search for Truth.

This is philosophy/logic/the laws of thought.

Such as the Law of Non-contradiction, the Law of Cause and Effect, etc.

This will not be found in history books, and will not be found in empirical science.

Without these axiomatic rules, rational discourse does not exist.
Wish I could cover all the bases, but again for what I'm being paid...

All I might recommend here if anyone is going to consider my Ten Truths in the spirit they were written is "not to lose sight of the forest for the trees." If you get my drift...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:03 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
What logic 8s there in believing that if you don't agree with what someone says then you must disagree with them. Sometimes you just don't accept what they said being so.

I said love was not truth but an emotiin. I don't understand how you can include that it must be a fiction if it is not a truth. Is football a truth or a fiction? My question makes no sense. There are things that are neither a truth or a fiction. Live, art, sports, happiness, sleeping.

Do you think sleep is a truth?

I don't care if the OP is an atheist or a fundamentalist religious zealot. I don't need to agree with all atheists, in fact a few are on my ignore list. And some Christians and Jews are in my friends list hence your pointing out the OP is an atheist is totally meaningless.
Niners had a pretty bad season last year. I don't know anyone who disputes that truth anyway...

Hope I don't end up on your ignore list (which is something I have never used), but so far anyway, it seems we might even become friends. That is if sharing the interest, want and respect for addressing these issues in an objective intelligent manner is a possible cause for a friendship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
23,154 posts, read 26,044,216 times
Reputation: 27886
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Have you got one perhaps? Is one required?

Science, religion and spirituality are all different approaches to establishing or determining what our universal truth actually is. See Truth Eight again, where it is noted they cannot be reconciled. Are you arguing they can?

.
Of course I don't have an example of a religious/spiritual 'universal truth' because there isn't one, as you've just admitted.
Therefore, the question of why you're putting all of this on a forum for religion and spirituality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:09 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
"I don't understand how you can include that it must be a fiction if it is not a truth. Is football a truth or a fiction? My question makes no sense. There are things that are neither a truth or a fiction. Live, art, sports, happiness, sleeping."

that is exactly the point i am making. i am agreeing with you.
which is why the logic in the opening post is flawed.
in the opening post emotion is discarded since is not "facts, reason, logic" it is "spawned" it is "speculation"

"FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond universal truth as determined and defined by science. Such notions, religions, often involve spirituality or a belief in an energy, power or force. A belief in a deity, god or gods, the supernatural. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotions and feelings rather than facts, reason and logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observation or scientific verification."

the poster LM consistently maintains that if something is not "truth" that it is "fiction" "false" "nonsense"
i disagree and many have pointed out the flawed logic in that premise which he continues to steadfastly maintain, in his parlance like cement.

so I am agreeing with you. it makes no sense.
Would take some work to untangle your understanding contrary to what I hope my truths better convey, but I think at least part of the problem is this confusion between human emotions (love, pain, pleasure, happiness) with religious or spiritual conjecture about our universal truths.

I don't deny that we humans share these emotions. That we for the most part all do is another universal truth that few people will argue. How you have managed to do so is rather novel, but unfortunately you are confusing some basic understanding related to emotions. As compared to what my truths are all about anyway.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:11 PM
 
21,869 posts, read 19,019,005 times
Reputation: 17980
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Of course I don't have an example of a religious/spiritual 'universal truth' because there isn't one, as you've just admitted.
Therefore, the question of why you're putting all of this on a forum for religion and spirituality.
oh yeah, thanks for keeping that on the radar oldcold.
i totally agree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:19 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_N View Post
While I agree that for many the path of Faith and the path of Reason seem to be competing or contradictory approaches to Truth, anyone who puts the effort in to explore the adult thinking of their faith will usually find a more nuanced line of thought.

For myself as a Catholic this can be seen in the thought of Aquinas (and many others), who recognize that the Truth of Reason cannot be ignored.

‘...Thomas had the great merit of giving pride of place to the harmony which exists between faith and reason. Both the light of reason and the light of faith come from God, he argued; hence there can be no contradiction between them[...] Faith therefore has no fear of reason, but seeks it out and has trust in it...” - Faith and Reason - Pope John Paul II
Thank you. Though I find it difficult to "reconcile" your argument here, I appreciate yet another good bit of input worthy of consideration...

I was raised a Catholic. Went through Holy First Communion. Church every Sunday. "The whole nine yards."

Came a point, however, that "nuanced line of thought" you mention became less nuanced and more contradictory for me. Less and less what I came to know as facts, reason and logic. Hard to reconcile, for example, any reason and logic that questions God to be coming from God. Isn't that a bit of the "heads I win and tails you lose" game?

I will be very impressed and maybe even change my perspective about all this if one day someone can actually demonstrate that "harmony which exists between faith and reason." With all due respect to Aquinas and the Pope, if you are able to do so other than simply argue such a harmony exists, I'd love to have you or anyone further explain more specifically.

Unfortunately, it's come time for me to sign off, so I can't give the information in the ENCYCLICAL LETTER you offer up due consideration, but unfortunately it begins with the premises that God exists. Not sure how someone who has not come to assume that as true can read much further, but I know there are at least a few people in this forum who can address this problem better than I can right now. If one assumes God exists instead of following the path described by my truths, then again, that sort of "reason" cannot be reconciled. That's faith, not reason.

Perhaps for you or someone else to further consider while I'm gone...

Last edited by LearnMe; 09-12-2019 at 01:27 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:30 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
good. then if you don't agree with all theists, then recognize the flaw in saying "religious people say this" like they all say the same thing. and if it is meaningless to point out the OP is an atheist, then it is totally meaningless to point out someone is a religious person.
Yes. I agree! Meaningless to go on about such things rather than address the strengths and/or weaknesses of any argument in a calm, collected and reasonable manner. With facts, reason and logic rather than other nonsense that only deflects from the topic at hand and causes a "delay of game."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-12-2019, 01:32 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,503,011 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Of course I don't have an example of a religious/spiritual 'universal truth' because there isn't one, as you've just admitted.
Therefore, the question of why you're putting all of this on a forum for religion and spirituality.
Not an admission and hopefully my further explanation as to why helps you to better understand now. Yes or no or maybe not the thread for you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top