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Old 09-12-2019, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
23,148 posts, read 10,445,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Always also a pleasure to think someone is following along so closely, with apparent interest, and true it is I shared my original Nine Truths some time ago. Doing so helped usher me into troubled waters here but also some worthwhile input that had me rethink my original composition. I revised much of these truths and added a tenth largely because of my more recent experience in this forum.

I certainly have no intention to come off as a prophet, but I suspect the charge is moving us in the direction of the sort of nonsense my truths attempt to avoid. I'm also not wanting to come off as an apostate, though I suppose that better describes the truth of the matter. I'm simply trying to promote a way of addressing some of these profound differences that unnecessarily lead to unnecessary conflict, violence and war.

Call that what you like, but I think avoiding some of these labels is generally a good idea if trying to make a more balanced and reasoned argument. Can I get an amen?
You talk real pretty, even like you honestly care where most people don't, but religion can't be broke down, or logically looked at because what is driving an individual is personal, and what some are willing to do is to kill the whole world, and while they are killing, they think the are in God's will. Like trying to negotiate with a machine. I just wished I could have been centuries ago, I would have been the greatest Berserker, must be nice to believe in the warrior way as so many believe today. Some religions still kill in the name of God, and there aint no talking them down.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:35 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,447,455 times
Reputation: 16370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
THANK YOU


There is only one truth.
Reality.
Reality is the ultimate Truth by the virtue of being.
Anything that is un-true does not exist.
Any manifestations of Reality are just that - manifestations of The Truth. Just like a sport is not a truth, it is simply a sport. And opinion about a game or season is just that - subjective opinion, not "truth'.

Prejudiced opinion about something does not make it "truth'.

And, as each human exists in virtual reality created by his or her prejudiced mind, human can not possibly even conceive of any "truth". Only of mental opinion.
Not to intrude on this thread, but if no truth can be known, then we can't know that your argument that we can't know the truth is itself true, and thus becomes a self-refuting argument.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
23,148 posts, read 10,445,085 times
Reputation: 2339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not to intrude on this thread, but if no truth can be known, then we can't know that your argument that we can't know the truth is itself true, and thus becomes a self-refuting argument.
LOL, neither can one have an opinion if we are all just made by chance, everyone would have to believe just as they believe because they are programmed to believe that way through the molecules in their brain just happening to form in the particular way they would do for each person, and thus, everyone must believe as they believe, there is no truth because everyone is programmed.
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Old 09-13-2019, 04:02 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
LOL, neither can one have an opinion if we are all just made by chance, everyone would have to believe just as they believe because they are programmed to believe that way through the molecules in their brain just happening to form in the particular way they would do for each person, and thus, everyone must believe as they believe, there is no truth because everyone is programmed.
Where on earth did you get that? We all work pretty much the same way because we all originated from the same genetic blueprint. That doesn't mean that we all act like robots any more than machines behave identically because they work by internal combustion or by computer software.
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Old 09-13-2019, 04:11 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,717,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not to intrude on this thread, but if no truth can be known, then we can't know that your argument that we can't know the truth is itself true, and thus becomes a self-refuting argument.
By all means, intrude. But the point yet again seems to miss the idea of credibility. It's one of the first i came across in debating theism and is one of the most persistent..like most of the others Believe or not is the name of the game whereas it ought to be the explanation best supported by the evidence is the one to go with.

The subjectivity of Human knowledge is a fact of being trapped in our own bodies and (as Gaylenwoof in his radar analogy had it) we are trying to determine by the images on your screen what is going on out there. I needn't bash the analogy into ground, but how devising methods of validating conclusions will be the best basis for Beliefs and guessing (never mind calling everything on the screen a a UFO because you have joined a UFO believers group) and dismissing any evidence that disproves it because of subjectivity and people have been wrong before but Faith never fails because you ignore any fails, is not the way to do it.

Evidence, not faith; best explanation, not 'believe - or not'.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:15 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,230 posts, read 26,447,455 times
Reputation: 16370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not to intrude on this thread, but if no truth can be known, then we can't know that your argument that we can't know the truth is itself true, and thus becomes a self-refuting argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
By all means, intrude. But the point yet again seems to miss the idea of credibility. It's one of the first i came across in debating theism and is one of the most persistent..like most of the others Believe or not is the name of the game whereas it ought to be the explanation best supported by the evidence is the one to go with.

The subjectivity of Human knowledge is a fact of being trapped in our own bodies and (as Gaylenwoof in his radar analogy had it) we are trying to determine by the images on your screen what is going on out there. I needn't bash the analogy into ground, but how devising methods of validating conclusions will be the best basis for Beliefs and guessing (never mind calling everything on the screen a a UFO because you have joined a UFO believers group) and dismissing any evidence that disproves it because of subjectivity and people have been wrong before but Faith never fails because you ignore any fails, is not the way to do it.

Evidence, not faith; best explanation, not 'believe - or not'.
Your reply to my post has nothing to do with the content of my post which addressed one specific statement made by ukrkoz to which I replied that the claim that truth can't be known is a self-refuting argument because the claim itself assumes to know the truth that the truth can't be known. The claim refutes itself.

Don't read into my post any more than what I actually said. And I'm not interested in your faith vs evidence issue, or your warfare with theism.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:47 AM
 
29,548 posts, read 9,716,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Ten beliefs. Truth is objective and universal, not subjective and limited.

Congratulations for conflating perception with reality and dooming your own argument.
Seems to me you are helping my argument at least with respect to universal truth. Yes, objective and the same for all of us. The rest I explain is simply to point out how we humans have a very hard time distinguishing truth from fiction, and I try to explain at least in part why that is. What you say I am "conflating" I see more as the opposite. My truths are about an approach toward separating or defining what is perception "what we perceive [reality] to be" vs universal truth, the reality that applies for all of us exactly the same way.

Your opinion about these Ten Truths is subjective, but what I explain by way of these truths is objective and true.

Since your understanding about this doesn't really get us to first base, I'm not sure what point there is to splitting more hairs about the rest...
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:02 AM
 
29,548 posts, read 9,716,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
the premise that there is no such a thing as "universal truth" in religion and spirituality is what old cold is bringing up. that I agree with. just as there is no such thing as "universal truth" in music, in food, in sports, in art, in literature. No "universal truth" in beauty, in courage, in integrity, in compassion.

what old cold is asking and it is a valid question, if you only consider valid that which is within the scope of "history" and "science" then that has nothing to do with religion and spirituality. so it doesn't belong in this forum. except to say why you don't like it which is your opinion.

an opinion is not fact. an opinion is not universal. an opinion is not universal truth. an opinion is what you believe. but that does not make it true for everyone. so the list is your ten beliefs. your ten opinions.
Seems you are understanding what is universal truth (though you spend far more time offering examples that are not universal truths and not really what my Ten Truths are all about).

Do also understand I certainly don't mind valid questions or even those some might deem not so valid. I think that's what this forum tends to be about; exchange of opinion, questions, answers, as best we can muster and/or feel inclined. Including all the "good, bad and ugly" this might involve far as anyone is concerned...

What I find very hard to understand is this ongoing attempt by some to prevent such an exchange from happening in the first place. Even more confusing are those who take exception, yet keep coming back rather than simply participate in threads more to their liking.

With respect to this forum specifically, I have seen a good many threads that are well outside the confines of what old cold seems intent on imposing. Lots of threads that I think are a bit "off the wall" too, but what I do is simply visit and participate in the threads that ARE interesting to me for whatever the reason. Ideally threads with many people participating and offering comments worth thinking about.

Even more specifically, I have explained many times I was born into a Catholic family. I "knew" God, went through Holy First Communion, went to church on Sundays, confessed my sins, had a Godfather, "the whole nine yards." I may have lost my faith but not my interest in religion or spirituality, and this is simply my story related to religion and spirituality culminating in something I put together to describe my conclusion after many years of formal study and contemplation about this subject, by way of these Ten Truths.

For anyone to consider and comment upon in the same spirit, or in whatever spirit they like. Agree or disagree no matter. Simple as that for me...

Fair?

Last edited by LearnMe; 09-13-2019 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:06 AM
 
29,548 posts, read 9,716,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We seldom agree at all, but your critique of the Ten Beliefs seems cogent.
Not sure we often agree and again not here either, but I appreciate the difference of opinion as just explained. Welcome.

Last edited by LearnMe; 09-13-2019 at 11:32 AM..
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:12 AM
 
29,548 posts, read 9,716,744 times
Reputation: 3471
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
I'm guessing your talking SF NFL. It might be true that the team had a bad year, good year or disappointing one, mostly subjected opinions and true that they played football but football itself is neither true or fiction, it's a sport..
Funny! Or at least I was trying to insert a little humor that apparently got lost in the midst of the back-and-forth regarding truth vs fiction, opinion vs fact. Of course how a team performs can be considered very subjectively, but there is of course the facts related to a team's performance record. Is it subjective to recognize a losing record as poor performance? Is it subjective to recognize which team doesn't win one game all season or which team wins the Super Bowl?

Comes a point from a simple pragmatic standpoint that we all pretty easily recognize what is fact vs fiction or more specifically what is universal truth and what is not. I leave it to the philosophers to contemplate whether we even exist simply because we think. These Ten Truths are not meant to establish what some will argue endlessly is impossible. They are intended to convey a simple message about how we might look at what is going on around us and why. Specifically in this arena of religion and spirituality.

Last edited by LearnMe; 09-13-2019 at 12:01 PM..
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