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Old 09-13-2019, 11:20 AM
 
22,580 posts, read 19,315,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Funny! Or at least I was trying to insert a little humor that apparently got lost in the midst of the back-and-forth regarding truth vs fiction, opinion vs fact. Of course how a team performs can be considered very subjectively, but there is of course the facts related to a teams performance record. Is it subjective to recognize a losing record as poor performance? Is it subjective to recognize which team doesn't win one game all season or which team wins the Super Bowl?

Comes a point from a simple pragmatic standpoint that we all pretty easily recognize what is fact vs fiction or more specifically what is universal truth and what is not. I leave it to the philosophers to contemplate whether we even exist simply because we think. These Ten Truths are not meant to establish what some will argue endlessly is impossible. They are intended to convey a simple message about how we might look at what is going on around us and why. Specifically in this arena of religion and spirituality.
"easily recognize what is fact vs fiction"
that is the false dichotomy
which is at the core of why the logic you are using is flawed


"what is universal truth and what is not"
another flaw in logic.
facts can be established.
universal truth may not be able to be established.
facts and universal truth are not the same thing.


example: there is a "universal truth" about whether there is intelligent life in humanoid form throughout our galaxy, not just on earth. there either is or there isn't. however that "fact" can not be established at this time one way or the other.

there is a "universal truth" about whether we as humans have an eternal soul that exists after the death of the physical body. it either does or it doesn't. however that "fact" can not be established at this time one way or the other.

Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-13-2019 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:21 AM
 
29,557 posts, read 9,774,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
THANK YOU

There is only one truth.
Reality.
Reality is the ultimate Truth by the virtue of being.
Anything that is un-true does not exist.
Any manifestations of Reality are just that - manifestations of The Truth. Just like a sport is not a truth, it is simply a sport. And opinion about a game or season is just that - subjective opinion, not "truth'.

Prejudiced opinion about something does not make it "truth'.

And, as each human exists in virtual reality created by his or her prejudiced mind, human can not possibly even conceive of any "truth". Only of mental opinion.
I agree! Or, uh..., err... I think I do...

Please note you touch on another area of confusion. Universal truth is not dependent on whether humans can conceive or recognize it. Universal truth is what is true, reality, for all of us, regardless who does or does not recognize it as such.

Again with respect to sports. Can we not accept and agree that sport is something many humans do? Is this not a fact? A universal truth? Or would you argue such a thing? Then too, is it subjective which teams have losing seasons or winning seasons? For what reason would we argue the final W/L records? These are documented facts that anyone can find and virtually no one disagrees about.

These are not the best examples of what these Ten Truths are all about, but they are about what we can easily recognize and accept as truth vs what we cannot, but more specifically with respect to religion, spirituality and science.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:23 AM
 
29,557 posts, read 9,774,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not to intrude on this thread, but if no truth can be known, then we can't know that your argument that we can't know the truth is itself true, and thus becomes a self-refuting argument.
How often this same point has come to my mind. Thank you!

Sometimes I read the comments in this thread, and I imagine all these people waking up in the morning wondering if they are really waking up in the morning...

PS: What do you mean by "intrude on this thread?" This too is a notion forever confusing to me. The more "intrusion" the better far as I'm concerned, long as it's relatively reasonable, civil and a best effort to express honest opinion about whatever the topic at hand. Thanks again. No intrusion. Do stay!
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:26 AM
 
29,557 posts, read 9,774,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Where on earth did you get that? We all work pretty much the same way because we all originated from the same genetic blueprint. That doesn't mean that we all act like robots any more than machines behave identically because they work by internal combustion or by computer software.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwOJlOI1nU
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:31 AM
 
29,557 posts, read 9,774,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Your reply to my post has nothing to do with the content of my post which addressed one specific statement made by ukrkoz to which I replied that the claim that truth can't be known is a self-refuting argument because the claim itself assumes to know the truth that the truth can't be known. The claim refutes itself.

Don't read into my post any more than what I actually said. And I'm not interested in your faith vs evidence issue, or your warfare with theism.
Self-refuting arguments...

That truth can be known is not one of them, and maybe if we simply try to better understand one another, make sense to one another rather than any kind of "warfare," the truth has a better chance of emerging for all concerned. Again much that these truths are about -- ABOVE ALL ELSE.
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:35 AM
 
29,557 posts, read 9,774,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
"easily recognize what is fact vs fiction"

that is the false dichotomy
which is at the core of why the logic you are using is flawed

"what is universal truth and what is not"
another flaw in logic.
facts can be established.
universal truth may not be able to be established.
facts and universal truth are not the same thing.
Not sure what to make of this comment...

Are you suggesting you cannot recognize fact from fiction? In particular what we can all recognize as fact without argument vs what is not verifiable far as everyone is concerned? Come on now...
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:47 PM
 
22,580 posts, read 19,315,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Not sure what to make of this comment...
Are you suggesting you cannot recognize fact from fiction? In particular what we can all recognize as fact without argument vs what is not verifiable far as everyone is concerned? Come on now...
"fact from fiction" is a false dichotomy because those are not the only options.
the inference of the false dichotomy you are using is that if something is not a fact it is fiction.

that is what we are asking you to recognize.
are you able to see that?
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Old 09-13-2019, 12:54 PM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,341,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
"fact from fiction" is a false dichotomy because those are not the only options.
the inference of the false dichotomy you are using is that if something is not a fact it is fiction.

that is what we are asking you to recognize.
are you able to see that?
Excuse me but isn't that the exact thing you brought up to me when I said live was not truth you asked if it was fiction or nonsense.

Are false dichotomies only allowed for you?
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:12 PM
 
22,580 posts, read 19,315,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
Excuse me but isn't that the exact thing you brought up to me when I said live was not truth you asked if it was fiction or nonsense.
Are false dichotomies only allowed for you?

i pointed out the false dichotomy then. I'm pointing out the false dichotomy now. It is the position of LM in the opening post and in subsequent posts. It is not my view.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
23,239 posts, read 10,522,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Where on earth did you get that? We all work pretty much the same way because we all originated from the same genetic blueprint. That doesn't mean that we all act like robots any more than machines behave identically because they work by internal combustion or by computer software.
If there is no grand design, and no grand designer then it means that all matter has combined by mere chance, the universe, and all matter within the verse including your brain and how the molecules and atoms formed in a way that made you an Atheist, BY CHANCE.

That all the philosophies of men, their logic and all their approaches to reality are the results of mere fortuity.

That you are I think by chance because the molecules and atoms in our brains formed in such a way as we had no choice but to believe what we believe.
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