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Old 01-27-2023, 10:13 AM
 
63,785 posts, read 40,047,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Somehow "awaiting my revelation" doesn't sound entirely honest or sincere, but I suppose it's typical for us to try and ignore the sort of rhetoric that suggests we're just wasting time here, and so I will here again. It's really no sort of "revelation" in any case. It's just facts and evidence or the lack thereof...

At least one measure I've described before is the lack of evidence that keeps us ALL from being believers, or believers in the same god or religion or notions thereof. There is no such evidence, or again, we'd ALL be believers. Just like there is no evidence there is water in a desert despite all the people who might see a mirage and think otherwise. The fact remains there is no such evidence. No water. "No there there." The measure is zero water that can be found despite the mirages. Just like we're ALL believers the Earth is not flat, because there is a lack of facts and evidence that proves the Earth is flat. No matter there are always those who believe "with all their heart" something to the contrary.

The evidence or lack thereof "speaks loud and clear" for most people who PROPERLY assess the facts, evidence and proof we have to consider, objectively speaking. In the same way, there is no evidence that bricks can think, or that dogs can fly, or that water can be turned into wine. The measure is zero evidence any of these claims are true. By evidence and measure, I mean the sort we all clearly, easily recognize and accept as fact, truth. Without debate or controversy.

Otherwise, all the rest are not truths of any similar sort. Other than by way of a good stretch of the imagination and claims of personal experience that are "all over the board" and also quite commonly used as reason to claim something is true, but there is a big difference between actual fact, evidence and truth versus personal claims backed up by only mere say so. Please reference my Truth #1 about this very important distinction if necessary.

That said, I'm sure you will also readily recognize and admit that there are all sorts of claims of evidence that a god exist. Evidence that is "all around us." Whether it be that ray of light shining through the clouds. The mind-boggling myriad of life that covers the earth. That wonderful feeling when we pray or experience while meditating. Of course, and if this is the sort of evidence that proves there is a god for you, religious or spiritual people, then no argument about what you/they believe or why.

However, these are entirely different forms of evidence and proof that most scientists and people like me can easily distinguish, and judge as we do. Basically that "MEASURE" that establishes what is fact, evidence and truth versus what really is nothing of the sort from an empirical science standpoint. That's the standpoint upon which people like me rely upon to establish and/or confirm what is fact, evidence and proof. That distinguishes truth from what is not.
I really did await your revelation but you chose NOT to answer my central question. To demand proof that what we are discovering is evidence of God you need some method to establish your assumption that it is NOT. You just assume it pretending we already know it is NOT unless some of the stupid and absurd CLAIMS of religious people are proven. That simply avoids the issue.

It is not about the claims of mere humans. It is an empirical issue about your ASSUMPTION that what we have discovered is NOT evidence of God without clear and convincing evidence that it is not. No matter how ferociously you try to squirrel around the issue with your verbosity it remains your preferred and unsubstantiatable brute fact or assumption. It makes no difference if the entire world agrees with you (ad populum). It is still an arrogant assumption without any real evidence that I once held and could no longer maintain in the face of my encounters. That is why there can be no default about it, IMO.
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Old 01-28-2023, 09:35 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I really did await your revelation but you chose NOT to answer my central question. To demand proof that what we are discovering is evidence of God you need some method to establish your assumption that it is NOT. You just assume it pretending we already know it is NOT unless some of the stupid and absurd CLAIMS of religious people are proven. That simply avoids the issue.

It is not about the claims of mere humans. It is an empirical issue about your ASSUMPTION that what we have discovered is NOT evidence of God without clear and convincing evidence that it is not. No matter how ferociously you try to squirrel around the issue with your verbosity it remains your preferred and unsubstantiatable brute fact or assumption. It makes no difference if the entire world agrees with you (ad populum). It is still an arrogant assumption without any real evidence that I once held and could no longer maintain in the face of my encounters. That is why there can be no default about it, IMO.
I really didn't answer your central question? Hate when that happens! Do let me try again!

First off, again, I don't "demand" proof. I've just not been able to discover any that might cause me to be other than an atheist. Nothing in the way of facts, evidence or proof that has me even in the slightest way convinced there is good reason to believe a god exists. I don't "demand" anything, including a belief in a god for no good reason.

The method I use or need is also as explained before. In short the scientific method. Also, again, the firm belief that if and when any REAL facts, evidence or proof is revealed to suggest a god exists, we will ALL become believers. Like we all are now about how the earth is not the center of our solar system. Like we all are now about how the earth is round and not flat.

The method to establish the truth of these matters as well is the very same. If I'm not describing the method to your satisfaction, how do you describe the method that allows us to know what we know about such truths? Our universal truths that no sensible, reasonable, person questions or disputes?

I'm also not assuming anything. The stupid and absurd CLAIMS of religious people is really just minor distraction when it comes to understanding and recognizing the truths of these matters. Goes with the territory, but my being an atheist doesn't have anything to do with those sorts of claims or the many ways people justify them.

Although I can understand and appreciate where you are coming from. I know all about your reason for becoming a believer instead of the atheist you once were, I'm a little surprised at what seems your "optimism" that all you explain will somehow cause me to question my being an atheist. It really doesn't any more than how the next person who claims to "know god" is any more convincing to me. Or why should it be?

I've addressed or explained what I think about all those sorts of claims more times than I can count as well. Regardless the nature of the many varied claims of truth, solely based on mere say so, that people claim to be true.

What gives you good reason to keep arguing what you do? I really have to wonder...
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Old 01-28-2023, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,765 posts, read 4,971,895 times
Reputation: 2111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I really did await your revelation but you chose NOT to answer my central question. To demand proof that what we are discovering is evidence of God you need some method to establish your assumption that it is NOT. You just assume it pretending we already know it is NOT unless some of the stupid and absurd CLAIMS of religious people are proven. That simply avoids the issue.
Not this god of the gaps and 'assumption' misrepresentation again, (simply to avoid providing credible evidence it IS evidence for a god)? How long are you going to keep playing this game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It is not about the claims of mere humans. It is an empirical issue about your ASSUMPTION that what we have discovered is NOT evidence of God without clear and convincing evidence that it is not. No matter how ferociously you try to squirrel around the issue with your verbosity it remains your preferred and unsubstantiatable brute fact or assumption. It makes no difference if the entire world agrees with you (ad populum). It is still an arrogant assumption without any real evidence that I once held and could no longer maintain in the face of my encounters. That is why there can be no default about it, IMO.
No matter how ferociously you try to squirrel around the issue with your verbosity!

Oh, the irony.
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Old 01-29-2023, 08:33 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I really did await your revelation but you chose NOT to answer my central question. To demand proof that what we are discovering is evidence of God you need some method to establish your assumption that it is NOT. You just assume it pretending we already know it is NOT unless some of the stupid and absurd CLAIMS of religious people are proven. That simply avoids the issue.

It is not about the claims of mere humans. It is an empirical issue about your ASSUMPTION that what we have discovered is NOT evidence of God without clear and convincing evidence that it is not. No matter how ferociously you try to squirrel around the issue with your verbosity it remains your preferred and unsubstantiatable brute fact or assumption. It makes no difference if the entire world agrees with you (ad populum). It is still an arrogant assumption without any real evidence that I once held and could no longer maintain in the face of my encounters. That is why there can be no default about it, IMO.
You still there?

Did I do better answering your central question with my next attempt? Are we there yet?
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Old 01-29-2023, 10:17 AM
 
63,785 posts, read 40,047,381 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You still there?
Did I do better answering your central question with my next attempt? Are we there yet?
Not really. I have respect for your pragmatic views and understand them coming from an Executive Coach perspective. CEO's have little need or use for philosophical speculations of this kind. The simple truth is that there truly is NO JUSTIFICATION for the default presumption about Reality because there really is no capability to directly "measure" the phenomenon of intelligence or consciousness as with most things in the quantum level of energy.

Our views about this are relegated to the realm of BELIEF precisely because of that. At least I have developed scientific hypotheses that support my belief and do NOT rely on presumption as you atheists are wont to do. That said, our views are equally unsupportable from a pragmatic point of view, something Harry, et al. seem to have extreme difficulty wrapping their minds around. The resort to the God of the Gap escape hatch and "emergence" is too frustratingly stupid to have to constantly rebut!
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Old 01-31-2023, 09:09 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Not really. I have respect for your pragmatic views and understand them coming from an Executive Coach perspective. CEO's have little need or use for philosophical speculations of this kind. The simple truth is that there truly is NO JUSTIFICATION for the default presumption about Reality because there really is no capability to directly "measure" the phenomenon of intelligence or consciousness as with most things in the quantum level of energy.

Our views about this are relegated to the realm of BELIEF precisely because of that. At least I have developed scientific hypotheses that support my belief and do NOT rely on presumption as you atheists are wont to do. That said, our views are equally unsupportable from a pragmatic point of view, something Harry, et al. seem to have extreme difficulty wrapping their minds around. The resort to the God of the Gap escape hatch and "emergence" is too frustratingly stupid to have to constantly rebut!
Apparently the ongoing confusion persists, because my observations and conclusions about being an atheist have nothing to do with what CEOs might need or want. Or what anyone else might need or want for that matter. Mine is not a "default presumption" either, but no matter how many times I explain this, you insist on resorting to everything being some sort of assumption, presumption, demand and default. My being an atheist is not predicated on anything like that. I don't see how my point of view, pragmatic or otherwise, is "unsupportable" any more or less than my point of view about the earth being round and not flat.

What frustrates you, I think, is the unsupportable point of view that atheism is unsupportable. Quite the contrary as explained many times. It's not about all you want to make it about, but just the facts, and/or the lack of them. Objectively, pragmatically and as fairly as I can consider them. All of them and/or the lack of them.

There is little doubt our points of view can't be reconciled, but from where I'm sitting, I don't think it's for the reasons you seem to think. Probably best to give it a rest in any case. I'll continue to wait until the facts, evidence and proof make us ALL believers (and I'll not hold my breath until then).
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Old 01-31-2023, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,765 posts, read 4,971,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Not really. I have respect for your pragmatic views and understand them coming from an Executive Coach perspective. CEO's have little need or use for philosophical speculations of this kind. The simple truth is that there truly is NO JUSTIFICATION for the default presumption about Reality because there really is no capability to directly "measure" the phenomenon of intelligence or consciousness as with most things in the quantum level of energy.
So you admit there is NO evidence for intelligence or consciousness at the quantum level. Whereas we DO have evidence they are products of the brain. Evidence Mystic gets wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Our views about this are relegated to the realm of BELIEF precisely because of that. At least I have developed scientific hypotheses that support my belief and do NOT rely on presumption as you atheists are wont to do.
An alleged scientific hypotheses, where our 'presumption' includes actual, valid scientific hypotheses and theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That said, our views are equally unsupportable from a pragmatic point of view, something Harry, et al. seem to have extreme difficulty wrapping their minds around.
Considering the thousands of responses I have posted showing why you are still wrong shows who appears to have extreme difficulty wrapping their mind around things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The resort to the God of the Gap escape hatch and "emergence" is too frustratingly stupid to have to constantly rebut!
And there we have it, Mystic not only denying evolution (hint, he hates "emergence"), but also insisting chemistry is magic (the creationist "life from non-life argument").

Because Mystic the science illiterate says so.
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Old 01-31-2023, 02:14 PM
 
63,785 posts, read 40,047,381 times
Reputation: 7868
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Apparently the ongoing confusion persists, because my observations and conclusions about being an atheist have nothing to do with what CEOs might need or want. Or what anyone else might need or want for that matter. Mine is not a "default presumption" either, but no matter how many times I explain this, you insist on resorting to everything being some sort of assumption, presumption, demand and default. My being an atheist is not predicated on anything like that. I don't see how my point of view, pragmatic or otherwise, is "unsupportable" any more or less than my point of view about the earth being round and not flat.

What frustrates you, I think, is the unsupportable point of view that atheism is unsupportable. Quite the contrary as explained many times. It's not about all you want to make it about, but just the facts, and/or the lack of them. Objectively, pragmatically and as fairly as I can consider them. All of them and/or the lack of them.

There is little doubt our points of view can't be reconciled, but from where I'm sitting, I don't think it's for the reasons you seem to think. Probably best to give it a rest in any case. I'll continue to wait until the facts, evidence, and proof make us ALL believers (and I'll not hold my breath until then).
And there it is in the bold underlined. You know full well there is NO METHOD for determining what is or is NOT evidence of God so you simply consider it all NOT evidence of God BY ASSUMPTION. This duplicitous pretense of openness to evidence of God is tiresome and borders on the word we are prevented from using to describe it!!!
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Old 02-01-2023, 09:50 AM
 
29,540 posts, read 9,704,508 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
And there it is in the bold underlined. You know full well there is NO METHOD for determining what is or is NOT evidence of God so you simply consider it all NOT evidence of God BY ASSUMPTION. This duplicitous pretense of openness to evidence of God is tiresome and borders on the word we are prevented from using to describe it!!!
You're something like the Energizer Bunny!

You always seem intent on ignoring the fundamental example of how we all agree about so many other universal truths without any problem whatsoever. I've reiterated over and over that I simply apply the same objective reason and logic to all claims, of any kind, and that scrutiny is what allows me to separate the truth of these matters from the claims.

If whatever your claim or belief falls outside the realm of this simple application of objective reason and logic, then yes of course you can claim or believe whatever you like, but needless to say we're talking about two very different things. Two very different ways of going about this sort of evaluation, assessment and conclusion.

I'm not sure my way needs to be described in such dramatic negative terms, since all I'm doing is the best I can do with what I have to work with. I don't know why you or anyone would describe my thoughts, opinions or approach so unfairly or negatively, but I suspect you do so because of some frustration that makes this a difficult exchange for you.

I don't think I can help you with that either, because all I'm doing is being as honest and sincere as I can be, and I've not got the emotional attachment to my opinions about this that you seem to have. "Just is what it is" far as I'm concerned. Nothing that anyone needs to lose their hair over I don't think...
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Old 02-01-2023, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,765 posts, read 4,971,895 times
Reputation: 2111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
And there it is in the bold underlined. You know full well there is NO METHOD for determining what is or is NOT evidence of God so you simply consider it all NOT evidence of God BY ASSUMPTION.
You do not know how evidence works? How did you get your PhD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This duplicitous pretense of openness to evidence of God is tiresome and borders on the word we are prevented from using to describe it!!!
Considering you appear to post the same old rubbish just to get responses, you should not go there.
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