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Old 03-09-2023, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,529 posts, read 6,160,089 times
Reputation: 6569

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
You can not think of a universal truth that is true for every one? Death, tax, and a triangle also has three sides?



Literally rises, or appears to rise?


If objective truths are facts, then yes, some facts will be the truth.

To be fair truths and opinions are different from facts.


A truth can be based on either a fact or a belief, but it is true to that individual.


An opinion need not be based on any kind of truth at all.


A fact is indisputable and based on repeatable scientific evidence and is true whether or not you believe it or have an opinion about it.


All facts are true, but not all truths are facts.


That's what cb and Tzaph are saying.


If we want to get really specific about it, facts are only facts until they are superceded by a more accurate fact.




(I refer everyone to 'The Half Life of Facts' by Samuel Arbesman)
https://www.amazon.com/Half-Life-Fac.../dp/159184651X
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,777 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I think it is you. You are only one I have seen who has ever mentioned "universal truths for all of US" never explaining who the US is that shares this with you, and what are universal turth.
...
That's not true. You do it almost every day. Go back think about the posts you make what is the ONE THING that you say is constant every day for all people.
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Old 03-09-2023, 11:35 AM
 
63,791 posts, read 40,053,123 times
Reputation: 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
To be fair truths and opinions are different from facts.
A truth can be based on either a fact or a belief, but it is true to that individual.

An opinion need not be based on any kind of truth at all.

A fact is indisputable and based on repeatable scientific evidence and is true whether or not you believe it or have an opinion about it.

All facts are true, but not all truths are facts.

That's what cb and Tzaph are saying.

If we want to get really specific about it, facts are only facts until they are superceded by a more accurate fact.

(I refer everyone to 'The Half Life of Facts' by Samuel Arbesman)
https://www.amazon.com/Half-Life-Fac.../dp/159184651X
Valiant effort to throttle this semantic Gordian knot.
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Old 03-09-2023, 12:46 PM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,015,660 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
To be fair truths and opinions are different from facts.


A truth can be based on either a fact or a belief, but it is true to that individual.


An opinion need not be based on any kind of truth at all.


A fact is indisputable and based on repeatable scientific evidence and is true whether or not you believe it or have an opinion about it.


All facts are true, but not all truths are facts.

That's what cb and Tzaph are saying.

If we want to get really specific about it, facts are only facts until they are superceded by a more accurate fact.





(I refer everyone to 'The Half Life of Facts' by Samuel Arbesman)
https://www.amazon.com/Half-Life-Fac.../dp/159184651X

Cant speak for Tzaph but facts are facts, until superseded by another fact, yes. Science only deals in facts, not truth. That is why facts are not truth, as truth is truth because it never changes or becomes a lie. If it does it was never truth.
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Old 03-09-2023, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,529 posts, read 6,160,089 times
Reputation: 6569
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Valiant effort to throttle this semantic Gordian knot.
I do my best Mystic.
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Old 03-10-2023, 04:02 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,768 posts, read 4,974,055 times
Reputation: 2111
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Cant speak for Tzaph but facts are facts, until superseded by another fact, yes. Science only deals in facts, not truth. That is why facts are not truth, as truth is truth because it never changes or becomes a lie. If it does it was never truth.
So a shape with three angles also has three sides is a truth, but not a fact?
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:24 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I think it is you. You are only one I have seen who has ever mentioned "universal truths for all of US" never explaining who the US is that shares this with you, and what are universal turth.
I know your response always is that you have explained it. Nope. Never. If so and I have missed it please quote the post where you explicitly, unconditionally, without equivocation, explain what is Universal Truth and who is US. And I will apologize. The sun rises in the east is not truth. It is a fact. Facts are not truth.


Unless you mean

is truth. In which case you are contradicting yourself.
Astounding!

I have many times given examples of universal truths, and you have just as many times suggested I have done no such thing, so I'm at a loss how to get through to you, and I'm not inclined to keep repeating myself. Either you don't agree the examples I have provided are universal truths, or you are somehow blocking them out from your view. Which, if I may say so, is a classic example of how confirmation bias tends to work for too many of US.

Rather than repeat myself, if you are still interested, please have a listen to the Neil Degrasse video I posted, at least up to the 5 minute mark, and see what he also describes as our universal truths. Objective truths. In fact much as I also describe in my first truth. Let me know if that helps. Thanks for you interest, questions and prodding. Helps me to continue efforts to make myself better understood for those like you who don't seem to understand me.

Sincerely,

LM
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:31 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
To be fair truths and opinions are different from facts.

A truth can be based on either a fact or a belief, but it is true to that individual.

An opinion need not be based on any kind of truth at all.

A fact is indisputable and based on repeatable scientific evidence and is true whether or not you believe it or have an opinion about it.

All facts are true, but not all truths are facts.

That's what cb and Tzaph are saying.

If we want to get really specific about it, facts are only facts until they are superceded by a more accurate fact.

(I refer everyone to 'The Half Life of Facts' by Samuel Arbesman)
https://www.amazon.com/Half-Life-Fac.../dp/159184651X
I am always pleased to see you pop in to join this affair on occasion, but to be fair and with all due respect, I've tried to address this about facts and truths before. You may have missed those efforts too, because you don't follow along as closely as most the people posting in this thread, so I'll do so again in the same way I've done in the past. By simply posting the common definition from the dictionary...

"Truth

the quality or state of being true.

that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality."

This is the definition that to my way of thinking makes truth and fact essentially interchangeable. What is the truth is a fact, and what is a fact is the truth. Simple as that for me anyway, and most dictionaries generally speaking.
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:36 AM
 
29,543 posts, read 9,707,420 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Cant speak for Tzaph but facts are facts, until superseded by another fact, yes. Science only deals in facts, not truth. That is why facts are not truth, as truth is truth because it never changes or becomes a lie. If it does it was never truth.
Not true. A "fact" that is "superseded by another fact" (if by this you mean until proven incorrect) was never a fact in the first place. It was a mistake. A falsehood. Facts and truths never change. Only man's understanding of what is fact or true changes. Two very different things!

But I've explained this all before as well. Again apparently all for not...

What is so hard to understand about this, I can only attribute to a stubborn wish to dismiss all we CAN know to be facts and truths, just because humans can make mistakes about what are ACTUALLY facts and truths. Mistakes that don't in any way negate the FACT that facts and truths exist. Regardless whether we humans know them or not.

Some we do. Some we don't, but they exist regardless!
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:36 AM
 
15,956 posts, read 7,015,660 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Astounding!

I have many times given examples of universal truths, and you have just as many times suggested I have done no such thing, so I'm at a loss how to get through to you, and I'm not inclined to keep repeating myself. Either you don't agree the examples I have provided are universal truths, or you are somehow blocking them out from your view. Which, if I may say so, is a classic example of how confirmation bias tends to work for too many of US.

Rather than repeat myself, if you are still interested, please have a listen to the Neil Degrasse video I posted, at least up to the 5 minute mark, and see what he also describes as our universal truths. Objective truths. In fact much as I also describe in my first truth. Let me know if that helps. Thanks for you interest, questions and prodding. Helps me to continue efforts to make myself better understood for those like you who don't seem to understand me.

Sincerely,

LM

There you go again. You are unable to own up the fact that the this whole "Universal Truth That is True for All of Us" is full of holes. Nobody, not Neil Degrass, nobody, can make that right when you are unable to explain it. There simply is no such thing.

1. One example of a universal Truth. Not facts, but Truth. And why is it Truth?

2. And who is the US that also know these "universal truths"? US is a multitude. Who are they?
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