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Old 03-10-2023, 08:46 AM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There you go again. You are unable to own up the fact that the this whole "Universal Truth That is True for All of Us" is full of holes. Nobody, not Neil Degrass, nobody, can make that right when you are unable to explain it. There simply is no such thing.

1. One example of a universal Truth. Not facts, but Truth. And why is it Truth?

2. And who is the US that also know these "universal truths"? US is a multitude. Who are they?
Please cb, you can keep repeating the same thing, and I can keep doing the same, but how about we pull ourselves out of the ditch? It's a simple question...

Listen to the first five minutes of what Degrasse explains. Do you agree with what he explains? If you agree, then you agree with me about what are our universal truths. AKA objective truths. If not, then we'll never see eye-to-eye about any of this let alone agree.

Insanity is thinking mere repetition will produce a different result!
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,393 posts, read 24,773,097 times
Reputation: 33260
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There you go again. You are unable to own up the fact that the this whole "Universal Truth That is True for All of Us" is full of holes. Nobody, not Neil Degrass, nobody, can make that right when you are unable to explain it. There simply is no such thing.

1. One example of a universal Truth. Not facts, but Truth. And why is it Truth?

2. And who is the US that also know these "universal truths"? US is a multitude. Who are they?
Then you need to stop proclaiming certain things in Hinduism to always be true.
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:49 AM
 
16,278 posts, read 7,209,320 times
Reputation: 8739
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Please cb, you can keep repeating the same thing, and I can keep doing the same, but how about we pull ourselves out of the ditch? It's a simple question...

Listen to the first five minutes of what Degrasse explains. Do you agree with what he explains? If you agree, then you agree with me about what are our universal truths. AKA objective truths. If not, then we'll never see eye-to-eye about any of this let alone agree.

Insanity is thinking mere repetition will produce a different result!
I would like to see YOU explain it, since you are making the statement. Two very simple questions.
There is no shame in admitting that you may be wrong and then you can move on.

You don't have to respond to this and repeat yourself.
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Old 03-10-2023, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,884 posts, read 5,079,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There you go again. You are unable to own up the fact that the this whole "Universal Truth That is True for All of Us" is full of holes. Nobody, not Neil Degrass, nobody, can make that right when you are unable to explain it. There simply is no such thing.

1. One example of a universal Truth. Not facts, but Truth. And why is it Truth?

2. And who is the US that also know these "universal truths"? US is a multitude. Who are they?
Death, taxes (?), and the value of Pi.

And according to you, Brahman.
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Old 03-10-2023, 09:01 AM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
I would like to see YOU explain it, since you are making the statement. Two very simple questions.
There is no shame in admitting that you may be wrong and then you can move on.

You don't have to respond to this and repeat yourself.
Is this to say you refuse to consider what a renowned astrophysicist explains about what I have also tried to explain?

You seem perfectly willing to post quote after quote from "ancient wisdom" for purposes of describing what you believe, as if everyone should appreciate the truth about all that, but you can't do the same when it comes to others who have explained what I have tried to explain, over and over again? Not lost on others I might add!

Sure seems to me that when it comes to your understanding of universal truths, it's ME that's your problem. You struggle with even my most fundamental efforts to be understood, so maybe it's MY inability to make myself clear. Listen to someone who knows far more than I do about such things!

Give it a try, or don't bother. Up to you, but you are making your obstinance all too clear yet again. Proving over and over you are not really interested in understanding. You simply want to bang your head against the wall that is me for reasons I truly just don't understand.

Up to you, but if you can't consider alternative voices that explain what I've tried to explain, then the problem here is all too obvious, and far "above my pay grade."
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Old 03-10-2023, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,393 posts, read 24,773,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Death, taxes (?), and the value of Pi.

And according to you, Brahman.
Yes! She states the Brahman as universal truth over and over and over.
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Old 03-10-2023, 09:13 AM
 
29,647 posts, read 9,858,571 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Yes! She states the Brahman as universal truth over and over and over.
All too often I feel I waste too much time in this forum, and very often it's this sense of futility that helps me to realize I'm past time to sign off again. It's certainly that time for me again now this morning...

Perhaps I'll return tomorrow after I restore my patience. Until then, here's to the truth of these matters. In particular our universal truths!
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Old 03-10-2023, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,557 posts, read 6,213,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I am always pleased to see you pop in to join this affair on occasion, but to be fair and with all due respect, I've tried to address this about facts and truths before. You may have missed those efforts too, because you don't follow along as closely as most the people posting in this thread, so I'll do so again in the same way I've done in the past. By simply posting the common definition from the dictionary...

"Truth

the quality or state of being true.

that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality."

This is the definition that to my way of thinking makes truth and fact essentially interchangeable. What is the truth is a fact, and what is a fact is the truth. Simple as that for me anyway, and most dictionaries generally speaking.


They are not exactly the same because truth can be based on belief as well as fact.

Facts are only facts.
If they were really completely inter-changeable you would have able to entitle your thread 'Ten Facts' and it would have stood the same. But your ten truths are not all facts.

Take #8 for example from your original post

Quote:
Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans.
This is a truth that you believe in. Perhaps many would not disagree with you. You believe it and I believe that you believe it. You are not lying. It is a truth for you.
But it is not a fact.

and then the next sentence

Quote:
Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress.
If this were a fact, Francis Collins would not have been able to lead the Human Genome Project.


Facts are quantifiable. They do not change. They can be superseded but the original fact remains.
Facts remain facts whether you believe them or not.


Truths are usually based in fact and are usually universally accepted but they are a bit more woolly than facts, and require an element of belief. And they are usually based in philosophy so carry a human element.

To demonstrate, google '10 universal truths' and see what you get. You will get statements like:
Trust begins with empathy
We're All Born Equal and We All Die Equal
Money doesn’t bring happiness


None of these are facts.



Now Google '10 Universal Facts' or '10 Facts'. They are objective. They are all based in science or geography and the like, not philosophy.
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Old 03-11-2023, 05:08 AM
 
7,679 posts, read 4,217,357 times
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I agree with what's been said about facts vs truths. Cruithne quoted a good example of a truth that is not a fact.

Quote:
Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans.
The quote above gives clues to the OP's perspective. Perspective is subjective because it is based on how we see things through our own eyes. It can be found based on words that provide the feelings of the author about a particular topic. These can be words that describe advantages and disadvantages. It is basically words that paint a topic a certain way.

"Fosters the peace" is perspective. It paints a positive light on science.
"Universal patience" and "acceptance" are additional examples of subjectiveness. These are all facts on how the author sees science. But this is not a fact on how science "sees" science if that makes sense.

I think that there is an attempt to be objective by the use of "facts" because it appears to be a higher level of thinking compared to subjectiveness. That doesn't have to be the case though. Objectiveness does not need to be placed on a pedestal where one says, "my conclusions are sound because they are based on (objective) facts." Instead, an alternative use of the word is to determine whether or not a conversation can move forward.
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Old 03-11-2023, 05:53 AM
 
16,278 posts, read 7,209,320 times
Reputation: 8739
Quote:
Facts are quantifiable. They do not change. They can be superseded but the original fact remains.
Facts remain facts whether you believe them or not.
Cruitne,
when facts are superseded by another fact they cannot remain as facts. I am 15 and my height is 5’2” is a fact. that is what i would write down in forms. At age 16 I am 6 feet tall. The previous fact has been superseded. I am on longer 5’2” and will never be. THAT is a truth. Everything that is born , created , will and do change. Change is the only constant. Death is a truth.
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