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Old 03-11-2023, 09:30 AM
 
29,547 posts, read 9,713,411 times
Reputation: 3469

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
They are not exactly the same because truth can be based on belief as well as fact.

Facts are only facts.
If they were really completely inter-changeable you would have able to entitle your thread 'Ten Facts' and it would have stood the same. But your ten truths are not all facts.

Take #8 for example from your original post

This is a truth that you believe in. Perhaps many would not disagree with you. You believe it and I believe that you believe it. You are not lying. It is a truth for you.
But it is not a fact.

and then the next sentence

If this were a fact, Francis Collins would not have been able to lead the Human Genome Project.

Facts are quantifiable. They do not change. They can be superseded but the original fact remains.
Facts remain facts whether you believe them or not.

Truths are usually based in fact and are usually universally accepted but they are a bit more woolly than facts, and require an element of belief. And they are usually based in philosophy so carry a human element.

To demonstrate, google '10 universal truths' and see what you get. You will get statements like:
Trust begins with empathy
We're All Born Equal and We All Die Equal
Money doesn’t bring happiness

None of these are facts.

Now Google '10 Universal Facts' or '10 Facts'. They are objective. They are all based in science or geography and the like, not philosophy.
All good points well taken and why I have also often encouraged people not to get hung up on what I called these ten thingys...

However, I'm not sure we're in agreement about what are facts and/or truths, though I probably should not say they are entirely interchangeable. Again, facts and truths are per the dictionary definition I provided as far as I am concerned. What I explained in my "Ten Truths" that are not facts are therefore not truths far as I'm concerned. And vice versa. A fact is not a fact unless it is true, and a truth is not true unless it is a fact.

I can appreciate using my Ten Truths to argue otherwise, but I would never suggest all I put forth as truths are actually undeniable truths. Yes, instead much is my opinion and more generally what I see to be the case that tends to prevail. At the same time there are exceptions as you well note. I probably should have added a truth about how there are "exceptions to every rule." The rule still prevails however. It's about this that I tried to make a case. Call all 10 whatever anyone might.

Mostly I've been interested to share these thoughts and discuss which are worthy of consideration regardless whether they are entirely true or entirely factual. What about the truth related to these 10 thingys that we can all agree upon or not to whatever extent? That's the thingy for me anyway...
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Old 03-11-2023, 09:34 AM
 
29,547 posts, read 9,713,411 times
Reputation: 3469
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I agree with what's been said about facts vs truths. Cruithne quoted a good example of a truth that is not a fact.

The quote above gives clues to the OP's perspective. Perspective is subjective because it is based on how we see things through our own eyes. It can be found based on words that provide the feelings of the author about a particular topic. These can be words that describe advantages and disadvantages. It is basically words that paint a topic a certain way.

"Fosters the peace" is perspective. It paints a positive light on science.
"Universal patience" and "acceptance" are additional examples of subjectiveness. These are all facts on how the author sees science. But this is not a fact on how science "sees" science if that makes sense.

I think that there is an attempt to be objective by the use of "facts" because it appears to be a higher level of thinking compared to subjectiveness. That doesn't have to be the case though. Objectiveness does not need to be placed on a pedestal where one says, "my conclusions are sound because they are based on (objective) facts." Instead, an alternative use of the word is to determine whether or not a conversation can move forward.
Is it possible that we're confusing what science "fosters" with examples of how science has been abused or misused by man? I was hoping to suggest a manner in which to distinguish facts and truths in a way that doesn't bring man to blows over the different versions of such. As represented by all the different religions and holy books. True, this is my perspective or maybe a hope, but I believe there is enough we all know about how science works along these lines that should not raise too much debate I don't think. In particular how science goes about confirming facts and truths. As Degrasse also explained in that interview/video I posted.

Who would argue with such a thing?
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Old 03-11-2023, 09:40 AM
 
29,547 posts, read 9,713,411 times
Reputation: 3469
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Cruitne,
when facts are superseded by another fact they cannot remain as facts. I am 15 and my height is 5’2” is a fact. that is what i would write down in forms. At age 16 I am 6 feet tall. The previous fact has been superseded. I am on longer 5’2” and will never be. THAT is a truth. Everything that is born , created , will and do change. Change is the only constant. Death is a truth.
Wrong again...

You WERE 5'2" when you were 15. That was a fact then and it still is now. I was 5'2" and 105 pounds when I got my driver's license at age 16. That was a fact then and still is. I'm now just past 66 years old, 6'2" 190 pounds and this too is a fact right now. As of the time of my age now.

It's not the facts that are changing here. It's our height and weight over time. Sheesh...

"There were 3 billion people in the world in 1960. In less than three decades, the population surpassed 5 billion in 1987. Another three decades later, there were around 7.5 billion people in the world. Since 1975, the global population has grown by one billion about every 12 years."

Assuming accurate census data here, all the above are facts as well. Truths. Understand?

Another fact/truth is that my wife wants to see "65" today, so weather permitting, we're off to the theater now, and I've got to sign off. Here's to the truth of these matters. Cheers to all!
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Old 03-11-2023, 10:11 AM
 
15,962 posts, read 7,021,038 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Is it possible that we're confusing what science "fosters" with examples of how science has been abused or misused by man? I was hoping to suggest a manner in which to distinguish facts and truths in a way that doesn't bring man to blows over the different versions of such. As represented by all the different religions and holy books. True, this is my perspective or maybe a hope, but I believe there is enough we all know about how science works along these lines that should not raise too much debate I don't think. In particular how science goes about confirming facts and truths. As Degrasse also explained in that interview/video I posted.

Who would argue with such a thing?
Science does not deal with truth. Only data . Understand?
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Old 03-11-2023, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,770 posts, read 4,977,966 times
Reputation: 2112
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Science does not deal with truth. Only data . Understand?
No, science uses data to draw probable conclusions.
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Old 03-11-2023, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Science does not deal with truth. Only data . Understand?
No...science is not just data. Take it from a person with 2 degrees in geology. It's not just data.
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Old 03-11-2023, 11:04 AM
 
15,962 posts, read 7,021,038 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Wrong again...

You WERE 5'2" when you were 15. That was a fact then and it still is now. I was 5'2" and 105 pounds when I got my driver's license at age 16. That was a fact then and still is. I'm now just past 66 years old, 6'2" 190 pounds and this too is a fact right now. As of the time of my age now.

It's not the facts that are changing here. It's our height and weight over time. Sheesh...

What I am today is what matters for all practical purposes. If I am 6 feet at sixteen I will always be 6 feet or more, until I am 84 and start losing some height, because body changes constantly.. That is the truth and the fact of the matter.
Does Degrasse know the difference between truth and fact?
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Old 03-11-2023, 11:09 AM
 
15,962 posts, read 7,021,038 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Is it possible that we're confusing what science "fosters" with examples of how science has been abused or misused by man? I was hoping to suggest a manner in which to distinguish facts and truths in a way that doesn't bring man to blows over the different versions of such. As represented by all the different religions and holy books. True, this is my perspective or maybe a hope, but I believe there is enough we all know about how science works along these lines that should not raise too much debate I don't think. In particular how science goes about confirming facts and truths. As Degrasse also explained in that interview/video I posted.

Who would argue with such a thing?
Science does not foster anything, all the fostering is done be people, used or misused. Same with religion. Peace and harmony or violence and death are all "fostered" by people.
There is no debate about any of that.

It is the misuse of facts and truth that is the problem.
Did Degrasse explain that?
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Old 03-11-2023, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
What I am today is what matters for all practical purposes. If I am 6 feet at sixteen I will always be 6 feet or more, until I am 84 and start losing some height, because body changes constantly.. That is the truth and the fact of the matter.
Does Degrasse know the difference between truth and fact?
And now you start talking about truth and fact???

I thought there were no universal truths...except when you say there are?
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Old 03-11-2023, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Germany
16,770 posts, read 4,977,966 times
Reputation: 2112
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And now you start talking about truth and fact???

I thought there were no universal truths...except when you say there are?
'There are no universal truths' must self refuting, because 'there are no universal truths' must be a universal truth.

I think ...?

I need coffee.
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