Spirituality and Social Justice (agnostic, priests, evolution, perspective)
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I think you have a point, except that what I think the other poster is saying is that when it comes to moral dilemas, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Racism both in and out of religion is a problem. Either you have done something to make it better, or you haven't. Neutral doesn't make it better.
This is different than some type of music. Opera isn't a dilema.
Racism is unofrmly evil no matter who engages in it and social justice is uniformly desirable. As usual, we agree more than we disagree on various issues, Phet. Your example of your own personal solutions in your profession are exemplary, but the wrinkle comes when "being part of the solution" extends beyond what you yourself do through some form of coercion of others and that is not remotely binary. That requires social consensus and acceptance.
In reagrd to the OP, first of all, thanks for posting that essay. It was very well done. I wanted to think carefully about how to respond to it, so I took a couple of days to read and re-read the article.
"Ethical culture" has done more ractical things to improve social justice than all the churches have done. In fact, other than mouthing platitudes, churhces have rarely been active in promoting social justice. With the number of churches we have out there, and the number of people those churches claim to represent, we should be a lot further along in matters of social justice. But we're not. Right now we're kinda stuck in a 1970s - 2020 stall. The churches could have been a moving force -- they could have been the leaders in social justice issues. They seem to forget that Jesus was a leader; that is a quality that they should emulate.
A good example of this failure "to do the right things" is slavery. Some christians will point out that some christians (primarily in the North) fought against slavery before the Civil War. And this is true. It was less true that churches fought against slavery, although a few did. The Methodist and Presbyterian church in my hometown were apparently involved in the Underground Railroad. However, in the North it was more what individuals did than any actual church leadership in the matter. And what they seem to like to overlook is that churches in the South actively justified slavery, as did invidual christians. And before some christian says that's not true, they need to look at the formal apology about slavery given by the Southern Baptists...hundreds of years too later to make a difference to the lives of tens of thousands of slaves. Tens of thousands of damaged men, and women, and worst of all child slaves.
Instead of slapping band-aids on people's suffering through soup kitchens and the like, how about using the public power of christian churches to lead solutions to social justice issues? I'm not talking about getting involved in politics (although they seem perfectly willing to do that when it benefits them). I'm talking about influencing congregations to actively seek solutions to human suffering. Not to pray, but to do.
The problem is what the author of the article points out -- that the predominance of traditional spirituality is ther person's personal relationship with god. "Personal relationshipo" is mostly about me/I. ABout "me" getting to heaven where "I" will be rewarded for "my" devotion. But very little to do with improving the lives of others who are suffering here and now.
The author talks about a "sense of connection". And this is where I think organized religion has failed terribly -- in fostering a sense of connectin WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT than themselves. I'm not talking about donating money for the poor (although that's a good thing). I'm talking about having experiences with the poor. Not just acknowledging that others have a different religion, but sitting down with those others and having a real conversation about a different culture and learning if there are parallel principles (not proselytizing). I'm not talking about praying for minority people; I'm talking about having an actual relationship with minority people. This is what I would call social ethics.
And before someone says there he is picking on christianity again, I can offer simliar of criticisms of Buddhists who are guilty of treating Muslims in horrible ways, and in Buddhists who refuse to allow women a formal role in the Buddhist hierarchy. I talk more about christians because we are having these discussions in what is, primarily, a christian culture.
In reagrd to the OP, first of all, thanks for posting that essay. It was very well done. I wanted to think carefully about how to respond to it, so I took a couple of days to read and re-read the article.
"Ethical culture" has done more ractical things to improve social justice than all the churches have done. In fact, other than mouthing platitudes, churhces have rarely been active in promoting social justice. With the number of churches we have out there, and the number of people those churches claim to represent, we should be a lot further along in matters of social justice. But we're not. Right now we're kinda stuck in a 1970s - 2020 stall. The churches could have been a moving force -- they could have been the leaders in social justice issues. They seem to forget that Jesus was a leader; that is a quality that they should emulate.
A good example of this failure "to do the right things" is slavery. Some christians will point out that some christians (primarily in the North) fought against slavery before the Civil War. And this is true. It was less true that churches fought against slavery, although a few did. The Methodist and Presbyterian church in my hometown were apparently involved in the Underground Railroad. However, in the North it was more what individuals did than any actual church leadership in the matter. And what they seem to like to overlook is that churches in the South actively justified slavery, as did invidual christians. And before some christian says that's not true, they need to look at the formal apology about slavery given by the Southern Baptists...hundreds of years too later to make a difference to the lives of tens of thousands of slaves. Tens of thousands of damaged men, and women, and worst of all child slaves.
Instead of slapping band-aids on people's suffering through soup kitchens and the like, how about using the public power of christian churches to lead solutions to social justice issues? I'm not talking about getting involved in politics (although they seem perfectly willing to do that when it benefits them). I'm talking about influencing congregations to actively seek solutions to human suffering. Not to pray, but to do.
The problem is what the author of the article points out -- that the predominance of traditional spirituality is ther person's personal relationship with god. "Personal relationshipo" is mostly about me/I. ABout "me" getting to heaven where "I" will be rewarded for "my" devotion. But very little to do with improving the lives of others who are suffering here and now.
The author talks about a "sense of connection". And this is where I think organized religion has failed terribly -- in fostering a sense of connectin WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT than themselves. I'm not talking about donating money for the poor (although that's a good thing). I'm talking about having experiences with the poor. Not just acknowledging that others have a different religion, but sitting down with those others and having a real conversation about a different culture and learning if there are parallel principles (not proselytizing). I'm not talking about praying for minority people; I'm talking about having an actual relationship with minority people. This is what I would call social ethics.
And before someone says there he is picking on christianity again, I can offer simliar of criticisms of Buddhists who are guilty of treating Muslims in horrible ways, and in Buddhists who refuse to allow women a formal role in the Buddhist hierarchy. I talk more about christians because we are having these discussions in what is, primarily, a christian culture.
that (bold above) shows a remarkable ignorance and deliberate misrepresentation of what "traditional spirituality" is. it is however consistent and congruent with the ongoing anti-religion rant.
you asked previously for an example of "blanket dismissal" and "blanket denigration." that is an example.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 08-02-2020 at 01:18 PM..
You are a tremendously closed-minded and prejudiced individual if your postings reflect your actual thinking.
With how many families in Alabama have you broken bread? How many have you even talked to during your times there? Which newspapers did you read that reported no news in Alabama?
I did not make any comments about the people inmy post so why are you asking tnis? Alabama is beautiful and i liked the way they have preserved nature in the places we visited. I found people as friendly as anywhere else. We listen to the radio a lot on our road trips and mostly tuned public radio, NPR. WHERE i live i have 4 NPR stations i can tune to and they have news every hour and other thoughtful discussion programs ranging on current events, art, music etc and interview. I love my radio. I could not get a decent station in Alabama. Perhaps you know stations that broadcast news, let me know. There was a profusion of church and country music more than what we have here.
When we drove into TN it felt normal again. Sorry but that was my experience.
I think you have a point, except that what I think the other poster is saying is that when it comes to moral dilemas, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Racism both in and out of religion is a problem. Either you have done something to make it better, or you haven't. Neutral doesn't make it better.
This is different than some type of music. Opera isn't a dilema.
Thank you for that clarification. I thought it was evident.
In reagrd to the OP, first of all, thanks for posting that essay. It was very well done. I wanted to think carefully about how to respond to it, so I took a couple of days to read and re-read the article.
"Ethical culture" has done more ractical things to improve social justice than all the churches have done. In fact, other than mouthing platitudes, churhces have rarely been active in promoting social justice. With the number of churches we have out there, and the number of people those churches claim to represent, we should be a lot further along in matters of social justice. But we're not. Right now we're kinda stuck in a 1970s - 2020 stall. The churches could have been a moving force -- they could have been the leaders in social justice issues. They seem to forget that Jesus was a leader; that is a quality that they should emulate.
A good example of this failure "to do the right things" is slavery. Some christians will point out that some christians (primarily in the North) fought against slavery before the Civil War. And this is true. It was less true that churches fought against slavery, although a few did. The Methodist and Presbyterian church in my hometown were apparently involved in the Underground Railroad. However, in the North it was more what individuals did than any actual church leadership in the matter. And what they seem to like to overlook is that churches in the South actively justified slavery, as did invidual christians. And before some christian says that's not true, they need to look at the formal apology about slavery given by the Southern Baptists...hundreds of years too later to make a difference to the lives of tens of thousands of slaves. Tens of thousands of damaged men, and women, and worst of all child slaves.
Instead of slapping band-aids on people's suffering through soup kitchens and the like, how about using the public power of christian churches to lead solutions to social justice issues? I'm not talking about getting involved in politics (although they seem perfectly willing to do that when it benefits them). I'm talking about influencing congregations to actively seek solutions to human suffering. Not to pray, but to do.
The problem is what the author of the article points out -- that the predominance of traditional spirituality is ther person's personal relationship with god. "Personal relationshipo" is mostly about me/I. ABout "me" getting to heaven where "I" will be rewarded for "my" devotion. But very little to do with improving the lives of others who are suffering here and now.
The author talks about a "sense of connection". And this is where I think organized religion has failed terribly -- in fostering a sense of connectin WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT than themselves. I'm not talking about donating money for the poor (although that's a good thing). I'm talking about having experiences with the poor. Not just acknowledging that others have a different religion, but sitting down with those others and having a real conversation about a different culture and learning if there are parallel principles (not proselytizing). I'm not talking about praying for minority people; I'm talking about having an actual relationship with minority people. This is what I would call social ethics.
And before someone says there he is picking on christianity again, I can offer simliar of criticisms of Buddhists who are guilty of treating Muslims in horrible ways, and in Buddhists who refuse to allow women a formal role in the Buddhist hierarchy. I talk more about christians because we are having these discussions in what is, primarily, a christian culture.
My experience about churches where I live _ i belong to none - is quite positive. They have been in the fore font in organizing Courageous Conversations about white privilege (80 %white suburb) and entrenched racism tha perpetuates poverty in Black communities. I was shocked that so many were shocked to Hear facts. They helped organize a BLM protest gathering. The do food drives and gift drives during christmas for the neighboring town that is reverse of mine. Ii appreciate all the things they do. But we live in a blue state with a nasty racial past but also steeped in abolishonist history.
My experience about churches where I live _ i belong to none - is quite positive. They have been in the fore font in organizing Courageous Conversations about white privilege (80 %white suburb) and entrenched racism tha perpetuates poverty in Black communities. I was shocked that so many were shocked to Hear facts. They helped organize a BLM protest gathering. The do food drives and gift drives during christmas for the neighboring town that is reverse of mine. Ii appreciate all the things they do. But we live in a blue state with a nasty racial past but also steeped in abolishonist history.
That impresses me. It's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
that (bold above) shows a remarkable ignorance and deliberate misrepresentation of what "traditional spirituality" is. it is however consistent and congruent with the ongoing anti-religion rant.
you asked previously for an example of "blanket dismissal" and "blanket denigration." that is an example.
I think you are selective about what a blanket denigration is. If you do not accept jesus as your saviour you will burn in hell is as blanket as it can get. All religions have these, this chosen verses the pariah, even WITHIN its religion and act on it. There are religious leaders who sow and encourage divisions, and create havoc. If you dont see that you really need to get a newspaper once in a while and read it. Check the facts for yourself.
That impresses me. It's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Were Blacks directly involved in the discussions?
Black people lead some of the discussions, from academics and also church but all white audience. But their position is, and i support it, is educate yourself, it is not our responsibility to teach you. So our town and everywhere else i see there is a flurry books to read. My town has book club called Subversive Readers and we read on many of these topics. Our schools have experiences a lot of racist harrasments that were unaddressed. Non white residents have been harassed in their house, at shops.
We have elected a more progressive select board and it has formed a Paid position to address race and inclusion. They held a listening session to poeple”s concerns and are working on a collaborative effort to make the town value diversity. There are taking another look at how US history is being taught. These are all positive and hope we dont lose momentum.
But one catholic church expelled a woman from the choir because she supports abortion rights.
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