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It's sad that some people would prefer to remain in darkness. They have no idea how pitiful they are. It's not even amusing, just pitiful.
I agree 100%. I can only hope that you will eventually emerge from the darkness of wilful ignorance and superstition, into the sunshine of enlightenment. Maybe one day you will, just as the Dark Ages gave way to the Age of Enlightenment.
I'll do that; but note the context; Paul speaks of the temporal power and the wisdom of the Greeks. This is factual rather than theological. Paul is talking of actual temporal rulers who put Jesus to death. Or that's how it looks to me.
But why would he distinguish temporal rulers if he meant Romans? That is as obvious as born of a woman, or people being flesh, so of this age is redundant if he meant the Romans.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
And, while I note the collective 'brethren of the Lord', Peter is separate, because he had a particular mission 'To the Jews' (as I recall) and Paul says his was to the Gentiles. Though Peter (Cephas) appears (from Paul) also to interact with Gentiles (perhaps 'associate Jews').
Cephas is also a pillar, so may be separate because of that role. An apostle is someone who is sent, a messenger. But I find it interesting Paul uses the word 'Peter' when talking about the apostle, but 'Cephas' when talking about pillar. Are they the same person?
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I reiterate that James was someone (along wit Peter) whom Paul went to see to get his position clarified, and James (singled out as 'The Lord's brother' rather than 'a brother of the Lord' (depending on the Greek) as distinct from Peter who wasn't, even if (coincidentally) his position as an apostle with some Mission was made distinct from the general bunch of 'brethren' in Jerusalem.
The 'Lords Brother' is an English translation to imply someone special, the literal text is 'the brother of the Lord'. Paul often says 'the brother of me' using the same form, or John talks about Martha, 'the sister of the dead one' (Lazarus). Again John talks about 'the sister of the mother of him' (Jesus).
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I don't want to 'Interpret' this to mean what I want, but suppose Paul had the belief that the last Days were coming pretty soon. Then wouldn't the Roman rule be 'coming to naught'? I have long thought that Paul's idea was to convert the Roman world (as much as possible) so they would share in the Promise, when the eschatological crap hit the fan.
Possibly, but Paul literally says they 'are coming to naught', not 'will come to nought'. Rome was still successful, so again it fits divine beings better.
But why would he distinguish temporal rulers if he meant Romans? That is as obvious as born of a woman, or people being flesh, so of this age is redundant if he meant the Romans.
Because, if the idea is that the end is coming, they will all 'come to naught', but th rulers of his world and specifically the ones who killed Jesus, are the Romans. If something supernatural is meant, it does put a different slant on it, like Jesus being handed over to the dark powers, though why they would have not killed Jesus if they had known (and presumably did know) who he was is harder to say. I have to go with the ones who (in ignorance of his divine role) killed him.
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Cephas is also a pillar, so may be separate because of that role. An apostle is someone who is sent, a messenger. But I find it interesting Paul uses the word 'Peter' when talking about the apostle, but 'Cephas' when talking about pillar. Are they the same person?
I wonder. The gospel shows that they are. I'll have to see whether Paul confirms that. (1)
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The 'Lords Brother' is an English translation to imply someone special, the literal text is 'the brother of the Lord'. Paul often says 'the brother of me' using the same form, or John talks about Martha, 'the sister of the dead one' (Lazarus). Again John talks about 'the sister of the mother of him' (Jesus).
I think the significant oint is making James someone distinct from Peter (or Sephas) when Paul goes to see them. They are all 'Lord's brothers' in the general sense, but James is identified as someone brother' that Cephas is not.
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Possibly, but Paul literally says they 'are coming to naught', not 'will come to nought'. Rome was still successful, so again it fits divine beings better.
I think it would still work if the idea of the imminent Last Days' is what is bringing all rulers, including Rome, to naught.
(1) Peter appears in Galatians as being entrusted with the mission to the 'circumcised' (Jews, of course) and is the Peter that Paul has a run -in with about eating with the gentiles.
I'll give the Cephas references:
Gal 2:9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
This seems to indicate that James and Cephas are two notables in the Jesus -party and that (since John - the third - won't be Peter) Cehas would also be Peter whom we now has the mission to the Jews.
1Co 1:12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Co 9:5. Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1Co 15:5. And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Paul's rather muddled account of apostleship implying three apostles Paul, Apollos (a Greek, evidently) and Cephas, who would sem to be Peter, with the mission to the Jews, is about validating his ow claim to apostleship.
The final one is the appearance to 'Cephas', and Luke certainly identified this appearance with Simon Peter in wangling 'First appearance' into the resurrection account.
Luke 24. 3 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
The reference in Galatians to James is: Gal 1:19. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. For what it's worth Luke, in Acts talks of James and the brethren, of which James is one, but singled out as the leader of the Jesus -party.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-25-2020 at 04:40 AM..
I wonder. The gospel shows that they are. I'll have to see whether Paul confirms that. (1)
In the brother of the Lord passage, Paul says Cephas is also an apostle, so that shows my idea was wrong.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I think the significant oint is making James someone distinct from Peter (or Sephas) when Paul goes to see them. They are all 'Lord's brothers' in the general sense, but James is identified as someone brother' that Cephas is not.
Almost correct, it makes more sense saying James is not an apostle. Paul could have said it easier if he meant James was also an apostle and also a literal brother of Jesus. 'The only other apostle I saw was James, the brother of the Lord'. Simple and no confusion.
But Cephas would also be a brother, as well as an apostle and a pillar, so there would be no need to say Cephas is a brother, just as you would not need to describe a bishop, or the Pope as a Christian.
Yes. Paul does appear to me to use terms in a way that is hard to understand, such as they are all 'brothers' but one needs to be singled out from the other (Peter) as 'brother'. Which (and I may be special -pleading here) may indicate that actual brother is meant. It might explain why he was apparently the head of the Jerusalem church, but he could have just been a good administrator. I think that we do have some clues to go on that are arguable. Details aside, I do tend to think that these are real people.
I feel up to doing this. It'll take a bit of assembling, so I may ave to do it bit by bit.
Starting with John, because he is important in placing the anointing at Bethany apparently when Jesus arrived from Peraea via Jericho.
There is a question of when the Passover was. If it is on the day of the crucifixion (also a Sabbath), then the Last Supper is on Thursday, two days before Passover and the arrival at Bethany is on Monday. If the Passover is the Last supper, then the arrival at Bethany is on the Saturday (Sabbath) which Jesus ought not to be doing, never mind Martha preparing a meal for hi.
But we get a clear picture from John. Jesus arrives, there is a supper and anointing and then next day, Jesus picks up his donkey and rides to the Temple.
12 1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. 3 Then Mary took about a pint[a] of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.[b]” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
7 “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you,[c] but you will not always have me.”
9 Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11 for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him.
12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
“Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”“Blessed is the king of Israel!”
14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, as it is written:
15 “Do not be afraid, Daughter Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey’s colt.”
16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him.
17 Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign, went out to meet him. 19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!”
20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified...".
Now this will do if it is taken that the Temple -cleansing didn't happen immediately. But that isn't what Matthew and Luke say.
Matthew 21.1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5 “Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”]
6 The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on.
Luke 19. 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, 30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? 34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
It is amusing to note that only Luke actually has the owner saying 'Hey - That's my bike'. Neither John nor Matthew have any question about the disciples taking the Ass. I suspect that Luke cannot see Jesus telling them what to do if the owner protests when the 'knoiws' that the owner won't protest. There's an example of doctrine developing the story.
Mark 11. 11 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 3 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.’”
4 They went and found a colt outside in the street, tied at a doorway. As they untied it, 5 some people standing there asked, “What are you doing, untying that colt?” 6 They answered as Jesus had told them to, and the people let them go.
Now that's a surprise, because Mark also has this question to the disciples. It is two against two and there are all sorts of possibilities that I won't go into here.
Matthew 21.8 A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,
“Hosanna to the Son of David!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Hosanna in the highest heaven!”
Luke 19. 36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Now Luke appears to change the story a bit. Instead of the crowd going to meet Jesus and breaking into song, the disciples start the chant off. Now, Mark will decide this. If he supports Luke, then Matthew hs altered it, I he agrees with Matthew, Luke has done the alteration, and we may guess why.
Mark 11. 7 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. 8 Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields. 9 Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted,
“Hosanna!”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”10 “Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!”
“Hosanna in the highest heaven!”
Mark is ambiguous about these people. while they can be seen as the festival crowd, they also look (if not like dicoiples) a bunch who had come along to participate in this procession. In other words, it all looks organised.
Matthew 21.10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11 The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
Luke 19. 39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Frankly these are individual add -ons. They neither agree or really make much sense in the context of a procession down the descent from Bethany and straight nto Solomon's porch. They envisage a procession through the city itself.
Matthew 21, 12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[e] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”
I won't labour the Two Donkeys' mistake of Matthew, but it's clear, and he has misread the Septuagint (Greek) version of the passage and so did not read or understand the Hebrew version and was no Jew, or at least had forgotten everything about being one. Nor will I go into the similarity between this event (supposedly at Passover or a few days before) and the festival of Sukkhot (Tabernacles), with the Hosanna procession.
Instead I point out that Matthew implies that Jesus arrived from Jericho, immediately collected his donkey and set out for the Temple. I can only say that a supper and overnight rest plus collecting a donkey put there for the purpose makes more sense tan the Temple -cleansing right away, and of course makes more sense than Jesus knowing by inspiration that a donkey was there and the owner would be .ok with 'The Lord' sending his boys to borrow it.
It is worth noting that the crowd went to meet Jesus shouting the Hosannas. It should also be realised that the way to the Temple from Bethany was down the mount of Olives to Herod's bridge across the Kedron river-vale and right into the Temple court. There was no procession through the streets of the city.
Luke 19. 41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
So, aside from the (Christian) 'Prophecy' of the Roman seige of Jerusalem because they did not Accept Jesus, we have Jesus immediately getting on the the temple -cleansing.
But not Mark.
Mark 111 Jesus entered Jerusalem and went into the temple courts. He looked around at everything, but since it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the Twelve.
The absurd idea of Jesus going on this kingly procession then gawping with his disciples with a tourist guide ("No photos") as though they'd never seen the place before is absurd, Mark's own idea as his addition. But why he does that is a bit of a question.
However, what he does is to have (as does Matthew) the cursing of the fig leaf. However, whereas Matthew has the plant drop dead on the spot, Mark has the result seen the next day when (according to him) Jesus and his lads turn up the next day.
Mark 11. 15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
According to Matthew and Luke this event happens on the day that Jesus does the donkey ride. This has to be some idea of Mark's. And I have a suspicion that he wants to avoid any connection between the Hosanna procession and the temple -cleansing which, as Luke and Matthew show, went together.
John, as we have seen, just has some 'Greeks' asking to see Jesus. So when does the Temple -cleansing occur? Well it never comes. John has no mention of that even that should have been right there, at all.
But we do (of course) have a similar event set before Jesus even starts his mission.
John 2. 13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers [b]doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house [c]has eaten Me up.”
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
Well. That looks just like it to me. And I have no reasonable doubt that John, fpor reasons of his own has ripped it out of Holy Week and shifted it to here.
I won't go into the supposed debates and wrangles in the Temple and the confused number of days that go by, but eventually, Jesus argues about the 'Caesar;s head' penny an the widow's mite (apparently sitting in the 'treasury' in the court of the women and he leaves to make his prophecies on the mount of Olives.
Instead, I want to go back to the anointing that John has at the supper on the day that Jesus arrives. And that will probably be a new post as it's time for me to reheat my gruel.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-01-2020 at 08:34 AM..
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Holy weak.
