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Not directed at me I understand but in any case I will answer from my atheist perspective.
Taking the first part, the concept of evil is a very religion-based one.
It assumes that 'evil' is a thing that is/ was 'created'.
Personally I don't believe in the concept of evil because it comes with all this religious baggage.
I believe bad people do bad things without any intervention from a higher power (though they might think they are in some cases).
The concept of evil is not a material thing like the earth, the trees, the mountains are.
It's a by-product of humans existing and doing things that are deemed unethical.
Are other animals killing each other / attacking each other evil?
You wouldn't normally label it as such. The concept of evil is a very human construct in my view.
A pantheist could have a similar view that I have.
I'm just playing devils advocate here so to speak.
On your second point I'm with you. If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer.
I'm not there yet. Still trying to figure out who baptized John the Baptist.
Not directed at me I understand but in any case I will answer from my atheist perspective.
Taking the first part, the concept of evil is a very religion-based one.
It assumes that 'evil' is a thing that is/ was 'created'.
Personally I don't believe in the concept of evil because it comes with all this religious baggage.
I believe bad people do bad things without any intervention from a higher power (though they might think they are in some cases).
The concept of evil is not a material thing like the earth, the trees, the mountains are.
It's a by-product of humans existing and doing things that are deemed unethical.
Are other animals killing each other / attacking each other evil?
You wouldn't normally label it as such. The concept of evil is a very human construct in my view.
A pantheist could have a similar view that I have.
I'm just playing devils advocate here so to speak.
On your second point I'm with you.
If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer.
On the first point, what if I replace the word "evil" with "bad?" I see you used that word a couple of times in your post. You mentioned "bad people do bad things." By the pantheistic definition those "bad people" and "bad things" are part of God.
On the second point, my point is not:
"If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer."
Rather my point is:
"If God is everything, then it could not have created everything.
So we have an answer - it is not logically not possible"
On the first point, what if I replace the word "evil" with "bad?" I see you used that word a couple of times in your post. You mentioned "bad people do bad things." By the pantheistic definition those "bad people" and "bad things" are part of God.
That's fair.
It's still assuming this pantheist god is creating bad people though.
I didn't explain myself well enough.
Maybe the pantheist god is just setting up the mechanisms that allow people to be created through normal biological processes? Whether they come out good or bad would be interventionist, which isn't what a pantheist god would be.
I'm stretching this metaphor I realise.
I have to say at this point, this is probably the limit of where I can go with trying to see this from a pantheist viewpoint.
I don't know how much joy you will get from asking an actual pantheist.
You will probably get a sort of slow and frustrating drip-feed of not-quite-satisfactory answers and never get an absolute clear explanation.
Why do you think I've been here 10 years?
Quote:
On the second point, my point is not:
"If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer."
Rather my point is:
"If God is everything, then it could not have created everything.
So we have an answer - it is not logically not possible"
Well okay. But they are in the same ball park, neither with a logically possible explanation.
Anyway I have to go to work!
Nice chatting with you.
On the first point, what if I replace the word "evil" with "bad?" I see you used that word a couple of times in your post. You mentioned "bad people do bad things." By the pantheistic definition those "bad people" and "bad things" are part of God.
On the second point, my point is not:
"If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer."
Rather my point is:
"If God is everything, then it could not have created everything.
So we have an answer - it is not logically not possible"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
Those are completely fair questions.
Not directed at me I understand but in any case I will answer from my atheist perspective.
Taking the first part, the concept of evil is a very religion-based one.
It assumes that 'evil' is a thing that is/ was 'created'.
Personally I don't believe in the concept of evil because it comes with all this religious baggage.
I believe bad people do bad things without any intervention from a higher power (though they might think they are in some cases).
The concept of evil is not a material thing like the earth, the trees, the mountains are.
It's a by-product of humans existing and doing things that are deemed unethical.
Are other animals killing each other / attacking each other evil?
You wouldn't normally label it as such. The concept of evil is a very human construct in my view.
A pantheist could have a similar view that I have.
I'm just playing devils advocate here so to speak.
On your second point I'm with you. If God created everything, who created God?
Its the age old question with no answer.
And it really doesn't need an answer from my Pantheist view.
This is a post I put up many years ago:
As a Pantheist, I perceive "ALL THE ENERGY/MATTER THAT EXISTS AND HAS EXISTED" as "GOD". We DO KNOW that the Energy/Mass that DOES IN FACT EXIST...rearranges so as to create things completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force....it "controls" that which it has created through "laws" and "processes", that we do IN FACT know to exist...and also maintains and sustains (or eliminates) that which has been created by it.
We also know that these are the attributes known to define a God.
Regardless of what ever anyone wants to call the KNOWN EXISTING Energy/Mass...it is, by its KNOWN ATTRIBUTES, definitively a God.
It doesn't matter whether this creation, control, and maintaining/sustaining/eliminating happened out of what some believe to be "chaos"...and organized itself by "random chance"...it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that that has happened, and is still happening.
It also doesn't matter if this Energy/Mass was never itself "sourced", has always existed, and was never itself created (or is a "multiverse")....it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that it DOES EXIST...AND...by it's KNOWN ATTRIBUTES (as opposed to "assigned attributes")...is definitively a God...without it existing in any other state than just the way it is, and has been known to be.
THIS is the evidence that "God Exists" that everyone asks for.
And it really doesn't need an answer from my Pantheist view.
This is a post I put up many years ago:
As a Pantheist, I perceive "ALL THE ENERGY/MATTER THAT EXISTS AND HAS EXISTED" as "GOD". We DO KNOW that the Energy/Mass that DOES IN FACT EXIST...rearranges so as to create things completely through indigenous power without assistance or accomplice from any other force....it "controls" that which it has created through "laws" and "processes", that we do IN FACT know to exist...and also maintains and sustains (or eliminates) that which has been created by it.
We also know that these are the attributes known to define a God.
Regardless of what ever anyone wants to call the KNOWN EXISTING Energy/Mass...it is, by its KNOWN ATTRIBUTES, definitively a God.
It doesn't matter whether this creation, control, and maintaining/sustaining/eliminating happened out of what some believe to be "chaos"...and organized itself by "random chance"...it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that that has happened, and is still happening.
It also doesn't matter if this Energy/Mass was never itself "sourced", has always existed, and was never itself created (or is a "multiverse")....it is an OBJECTIVE FACT that it DOES EXIST...AND...by it's KNOWN ATTRIBUTES (as opposed to "assigned attributes")...is definitively a God...without it existing in any other state than just the way it is, and has been known to be.
THIS is the evidence that "God Exists" that everyone asks for.
?
I really should be going, but I don't see any attributes here known to define a god.
I've never heard of a god defined by mass / energy / matter.
Not in any religious texts anyway.
This may be your interpretation of those things and that's fine.
Everything you describe is defined by physical laws that humans discovered through science.
They are scientific terms.
You can call it all god if you want but its not 'definitely a god', only that you perceive it to be that.
I really should be going, but I don't see any attributes here known to define a god.
I've never heard of a god defined by mass / energy / matter.
Not in any religious texts anyway.
This may be your interpretation of those things and that's fine.
Everything you describe is defined by physical laws that humans discovered through science.
They are scientific terms.
You can call it all god if you want but its not 'definitely a god', only that you perceive it to be that.
To me it's all physics.
Anyhow, now I'm definitely going.
Everything is created by and through ALL THE ENERGY/MATTER THAT EXISTS (ALL) without assistance or accomplice from any other force: CREATOR
ALL occupies all places and spaces: ALL PRESENT
ALL is inclusive of any and every force that there is: ALL POWERFUL
ALL THE ENERGY/MATTER THAT EXISTS would include all the mental and conscious energy there is, and everything known or thought at any given time: ALL KNOWING of all that is known.
This mental energy would include all the feelings of love there is: ALL LOVING
These attributes align with the attributes that are given the metaphorical & representative Deity type Gods written about in variousTheological writings.
As per a more generic definition..."G-O-D" is defined as The Supreme or Ultimate Reality and Something of Supreme Value.
It is debateable what would qualify as these...but "ALL" certainly does.
Also...nothing is a "God" except that it is perceived as such by humans...that's what makes it a God.
Even the Religious Deities. They could have left them as Jehovah, Allah, etc...but they deemed them Gods.
I keep trying to explain...God is a title, that is assigned to that which is perceived as such...like "friend" or "hero".
The problem is...Theological Texts referred to the Deities as "God" so much...people automatically default to them as "God", and cannot see God as any other manifestation. It's the CEMENT you note!
Not really. I said, "....things that humans consider "evil" , "bad", "wrong", etc."
But, ultimately, all that is subjective. Those concepts are human constructs and only exist as ideas people have.
Case in point...there are things that some consider "a right" that they sanction...that I think is the most evil, heinous barbaric thing that humans could do.
And God is necessarily that too.
I usually get, "So God is dog poop, snot, toilets, and dildos?" I just say, Yes, of course.
SO, yup...God is Vlad the Impaler, and even the act of impaling. And though most think that's rough...Vlad probably thought he was a cool dude, and enjoyed impaling people.
That's fair.
It's still assuming this pantheist god is creating bad people though.
I didn't explain myself well enough.
Maybe the pantheist god is just setting up the mechanisms that allow people to be created through normal biological processes? Whether they come out good or bad would be interventionist, which isn't what a pantheist god would be.
I'm stretching this metaphor I realise.
I have to say at this point, this is probably the limit of where I can go with trying to see this from a pantheist viewpoint.
I don't know how much joy you will get from asking an actual pantheist.
You will probably get a sort of slow and frustrating drip-feed of not-quite-satisfactory answers and never get an absolute clear explanation.
Why do you think I've been here 10 years?
.
Well the claim made earlier in this thread is that the Pantheist God is everything. So whatever the mechanism of creation, the "bad people" and "bad things" are a subset of everything. And hence the "bad people" and "bad things" are a part of the Pantheist God.
I view ALL that exists, in totality, as a single Entity...One Thing.
Those things that get mentioned by puerile people looking to bash Theist Beliefs, is such a infinitesimal part of something 93 Billion light years across that encompasses a hundred billion galaxies each containing a hundred billion stars.
And the idea that those things are "gross" is just a human construct anyway...and only brought up so people that think likewise will focus on it and ask, "...why would you want to worship that?".
Also...I have "reverence" for the God I perceive...no "worship" involved.
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