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Good to see you again, Gldn. Our efforts to mitigate the rampant default atheism under the "burden of proof" nonsense here has borne fruit but meagerly. The atheists in the other threads still insist on couching their arguments using the EXISTENCE of God effectively pretending that this clarification eliminating that argument does NOT exist. What they're actually arguing about are the ATTRIBUTES of God but they insist on claiming it is about the EXISTENCE. It is very frustrating and annoying and now instantiated into the forum rules.
My Christian panentheism is effectively restricted by this rule from countering the existence argument in the other threads leaving the atheists free to use it without consequence which they do routinely in the other threads as well as in this one. As Arq (Trans) has boldly proclaimed, the R&S forum is effectively an atheist dominated forum.
atheist here have shunned science and avoid confronting claims that have proof. So what is lefty is their "god-faith" that trans is always running on about.
They have blind faith that their statement of belief about god is the one true saving statement. if they aint exactly the same as fundy think theist ...
they really need to start admitting "we are here for a statement o belief about god just like you theist and we need no more proof than you guys do."
the good news. trans says he just shrugs at the belief.
Do you get the sense that his sect of atheism just "shrugs" and says "Ok, you call it god I call it the unversed." and moves on?
They must.
Once they acknowledge "God Exists"...that nullifies Pedigree Atheism.
I just see Pantheism as so logical and reasonable. "ALL" (Pan) is necessarily the Source and Creator of everything and everyone that exists...and at the same time, it is all that exists.
If "ALL" is not worthy of the title "God"...we may as well get rid of the word.
They must.
Once they acknowledge "God Exists"...that nullifies Pedigree Atheism.
I just see Pantheism as so logical and reasonable. "ALL" (Pan) is necessarily the Source and Creator of everything and everyone that exists...and at the same time, it is all that exists.
If "ALL" is not worthy of the title "God"...we may as well get rid of the word.
yup, I actually think the word "god" is like the words "free will" and "supernatural". The are null words at this point in time. Something more is clearly going on but its not a deity. And the word god needs some real clarification.
I think I shrug off pantheism and mystics god. I shrug it off as "I call it the universe not god and you don't". I don't think the iron curtain gang "shrugs" it off at all. They have to fight it like some Christians has to fight some Muslims. Its about running a society on their statement of belief about god. Despite the evidence for mystics claim they have to deny it like any fundy theist denies evolution. with convoluted logic and misrepresentation. And they get his claimed stopped by any means necessary. I don't think thats just "shrugging off".
They must.
Once they acknowledge "God Exists"...that nullifies Pedigree Atheism.
I just see Pantheism as so logical and reasonable. "ALL" (Pan) is necessarily the Source and Creator of everything and everyone that exists...and at the same time, it is all that exists.
If "ALL" is not worthy of the title "God"...we may as well get rid of the word.
If others fiddled the label as you and Mystic do, we might have to. You both know that 'Intelligence' is what has to be proven before 'God' rather than 'Nature' is going to be anything but deliberately bamboozling. It's why he refuses to talk about it and you use 'Pantheism' to evade it.
If others fiddled the label as you and Mystic do, we might have to. You both know that 'Intelligence' is what has to be proven before 'God' rather than 'Nature' is going to be anything but deliberately bamboozling. It's why he refuses to talk about it and you use 'Pantheism' to evade it.
Howz it goin' old fella?!
There is no "fiddle", there never was one...well, except by you & your crew.
"ALL" and that which comprises it, possesses all of the intelligence and all of the knowledge that exists at any given time...it truly is "All knowing" & "All wise"...attributes known to be definitive and indicative of a "God Entity".
In fact...the only entity that possesses the totality of intellect & knowledge is "ALL". Furthermore...it is the only entity, that, if eliminated...would result in there being no more intellect or knowledge...or anything else, for that matter.
"ALL" can be referred to as "Everything", "Reality", "Universe", "Nature" or whatever else one may chose to call the totality of that which exists...but, because it is "ALL", it intrinsically and necessarily possesses all traits and attributes....and, logically, that is something that's unequivocally and irrefutably self-substantiating.
That's why Pantheism is the ultimate ideology. There is nothing "ALL" is not, cannot be, or cannot do!
Good to see you again, Gldn. Our efforts to mitigate the rampant default atheism under the "burden of proof" nonsense here has borne fruit but meagerly. The atheists in the other threads still insist on couching their arguments using the EXISTENCE of God effectively pretending that this clarification eliminating that argument does NOT exist. What they're actually arguing about are the ATTRIBUTES of God but they insist on claiming it is about the EXISTENCE. It is very frustrating and annoying and now instantiated into the forum rules.
My Christian panentheism is effectively restricted by this rule from countering the existence argument in the other threads leaving the atheists free to use it without consequence which they do routinely in the other threads as well as in this one. As Arq (Trans) has boldly proclaimed, the R&S forum is effectively an atheist dominated forum.
Ahhhhhhh, Mystic...the one that helped me realize "God".
I never knew...spent my whole life with a Atheistic view...because I never knew "God" is not limited to just the metaphorical and allegorical characters found in ancient theological texts and writings.
I know my insight is not as enlightened as yours...due to my lack of having the experiences you've been blessed with to stimulate such an evolution of understanding.
But your patient and generous teaching and explanation helped me achieve sufficient understanding to find the Spiritual & Divine qualities of "ALL"...and made "God" manifest in my life by way of a Pantheistic appreciation.
I now realize God. It doesn't get any better than that!
Howz it goin' old fella?!
There is no "fiddle", there never was one...well, except by you & your crew.
"ALL" and that which comprises it, possesses all of the intelligence and all of the knowledge that exists at any given time...it truly is "All knowing" & "All wise"...attributes known to be definitive and indicative of a "God Entity".
In fact...the only entity that possesses the totality of intellect & knowledge is "ALL". Furthermore...it is the only entity, that, if eliminated...would result in there being no more intellect or knowledge...or anything else, for that matter.
"ALL" can be referred to as "Everything", "Reality", "Universe", "Nature" or whatever else one may chose to call the totality of that which exists...but, because it is "ALL", it intrinsically and necessarily possesses all traits and attributes....and, logically, that is something that's unequivocally and irrefutably self-substantiating.
That's why Pantheism is the ultimate ideology. There is nothing "ALL" is not, cannot be, or cannot do!
Thank you Goldie old mate. Never better (after a few aches and pains) but saddened at the end of holiday travel thanks to Covid, which has nevertheless convinced me (if it hasn't convinced everyone) that there is no intervening god because (as was shown by the lotteries) if there was an opportunity to Sort a few things out, and no questions asked, it hasn't been taken.
And thank you again for the word 'intelligence'. Which you once admitted that 'God' had to be, but later tried to backtrack when you realised that You had to prove it (1). I see that you have tried to focus this on human intelligence being God's but that's something you have to prove, too as 'animal consciousness' limits that to humans -as your Mentor and sourcebook, Mystic phd, realised when he had to devise his 'Gnatswarm' theory (2).
In fact your Pantheism way to avoid the intelligence that you (like he) has slipped into admitting and without which 'God' is better called 'nature' has allready been sussed by the posters who have engaged with him here and if they aren't going to be fooled by his semantic fiddlery and 'Pan -en-theism' wriggling, they certainly aren't going to be fooled by you.
So I won't be sucked into yet another pointless round of denial, sauce and accusations. I reckon i can leave you to others.
Have a good week, stay safe and remember to wash Both hands.
(1) worth saying again though probably the topflight apologists here have picked it up, that the point, ploy or tactic was always to wangle a god into being 'admitted' without any real evidence being produced, because you don't have any. It was always claims of finding a god in natural things.
(2) I knew there was another point. It's always been amusing that Mystic (who at least makes an effort to make a case) never gets near presenting any real (good) evidence, but is struggling to come up with a hypothesis that even Looks 'Plausible' as he claims.
That you seem to have missed his 'human consciousness -cell' (Gnatswarm) -theory or haven't bothered to think about it shows us all that really, you case isn't even as good as Mystics.
Though it is better than Arach's.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-28-2020 at 09:35 AM..
Ahhhhhhh, Mystic...the one that helped me realize "God".
I never knew...spent my whole life with a Atheistic view...because I never knew "God" is not limited to just the metaphorical and allegorical characters found in ancient theological texts and writings.
I know my insight is not as enlightened as yours...due to my lack of having the experiences you've been blessed with to stimulate such an evolution of understanding.
But your patient and generous teaching and explanation helped me achieve sufficient understanding to find the Spiritual & Divine qualities of "ALL"...and made "God" manifest in my life by way of a Pantheistic appreciation.
I now realize God. It doesn't get any better than that!
I'm going to risk a slapdown, but I have got to unveil the Real story (as I see it) here.
You, like many, many others, could not believe in the god of the Bible any more than I could. So you were atheist.
But like many, many others, peculiarly in America, as it doesn't seem to happen in Europe (1), you had a hatred of the very name atheist because it has connotations of 'Liberal left - commie'. And your loathing of Left -wing liberalism, like Arach, was evident from the start.
You needed a god that didn't rely on the Bible or even religion. And Mystic gave you just what you needed. Arach is trying to do it with his 'Universe is alive' take on the 'Cosmic consciousness', but you just cheat by calling 'Nature' God, and appealing to the antiquity of Pantheism as validation.
No charge folks, but a rep is always appreciated. Damn hard to come by, these days.
(1) mind, Peter Hitchens' conversion seems to have been mainly for political reasons - Soviet communism was atheist.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-28-2020 at 09:52 AM..
Acknowledging that pantheism and panentheism are legitimate religions and arguments that eliminate your demands for evidence of the existence of God since they encompass ALL existing evidence as evidence of God.
Your inability to establish any scientifically sound basis for the existence demand in the face of the pantheistic religions means your spinning in circles is apt to be unending. We are NOT claiming the existence of something not yet existing. We are characterizing what DOES exist. All your disbelief centers on what its attributes are or are not.
What makes a religion or any religion legitimate? That there are adherents for all of them? Seems by way of your criteria we need to consider Flat Earthism just as legitimate.
Also, it isn't my inability to establish any scientifically sound basis for the existence of god. I have never claimed to be a scientist or to have powers or insights that transcend others like you. I just read what science has been able to determine about such things. Also what folks like you claim otherwise, and I judge as best I can given all there is to consider. With all due respect, I will admit to putting extra weight on all legitimate conclusions scientists have been able to establish as fact and/or as unknown. Nothing more and nothing less.
I know we'll never agree or reconcile these differences, but it seems to me it is YOUR inability to truly understand my conclusions to date and reason(s) for them. Not having all that much to do with what you want to insist my "disbelief centers on." Nor how YOU want to characterize my reason and logic.
Not sure how many links I can provide that further describe or support my thoughts on this subject, but here's another that has a little something for everyone. Again much as I see it too and why...
"For 10 years, I was an editor at Scientific American. During that time, we were diligent about exposing the falsehoods of “intelligent design” proponents who claimed to see God’s hand in the fashioning of complex biological structures such as the human eye and the bacterial flagellum. But in 2008 I left journalism to write fiction. I wrote novels about Albert Einstein and quantum theory and the mysteries of the cosmos. And ideas about God keep popping up in my books."
Yes. 'god' (the rule is lower case ) is deep in the human psyche, and perhaps in human instinct. Jusrt as is the idea of the sun rising. But we know that isn't how it looks.
Call it 'god' and even try to link it with the Woo - end stuff about interlocked Quantum. Like other ID -arguments, it may eliminate atheism as such, if it is validated, but just leaves Religion just where they started.
This is why irreligious theists and 'agnostics' are the brethren and sistren of secularists (even if they shrivel like salted slugs at the very word 'Atheism': "the devil himself hath not such a name" - Shakespeare.) and even pantheists and - yes - Pan -en -theists. Just so long as they recognise that such beliefs are Faith -based and do NOT prove atheism wrong, until validate.
That is where those who attack and try to debunk atheism (whether or not for political reasons) get the pushback that people like Troutdude (finding himself most definitely on the Wrong Side with a theist or two ) - or indeed Christian Warden Dresden - do not get from us.
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Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Our efforts to mitigate the rampant default atheism under the "burden of proof" nonsense here has borne fruit but meagerly. The atheists in the other threads still insist on couching their arguments using the EXISTENCE of God effectively pretending that this clarification eliminating that argument does NOT exist. What they're actually arguing about are the ATTRIBUTES of God but they insist on claiming it is about the EXISTENCE. It is very frustrating and annoying and now instantiated into the forum rules. 
) is deep in the human psyche, and perhaps in human instinct. Jusrt as is the idea of the sun rising. But we know that isn't how it looks.
