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Old 07-16-2021, 10:49 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Just taking your first paragraph Mystic...
You seem to be saying that you think it's possible that god came to exist ie there was a time when god did not exist.

I'm suprised to see you even considering that as a possibility.

In my view, the universe has always existed in some form. I think there is likely something cyclical going on. It's the only thing that makes any rational sense to me.
Indeed I'd like to understand the point of view that the universe in one form or another, present form or otherwise, could have ever NOT existed. The simple problem is that we humans have a bit of a problem with the notion of infinity even though there is no other way to view all that is without limit and without beginning or end.

Like Mystic, most of us are not able to understand such things outside the trappings of how humans have viewed our world and our place in it to date. Trappings further limited by the typical religious thinking that has bottled everything in Earthly terms we can understand. God one of the favorite terms. Entirely impatient with all else that we can't yet understand. Entirely unable to consider what we can't yet understand without invoking a god to fill that vacuum of knowledge. Just like we always have from the beginning, though now just a bit less thanks to the advent of science.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
10,510 posts, read 6,130,322 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Fair assessment about how pantheism can ultimately be described in the end...

The part that is a true stumbling block for me is right out of the starting block. That "leap" going from everything that exists to the existence of a God. As if all that exists in and of itself is proof of a god. Any kind of God. With all due respect to the definitions in the dictionary, that sort of logic is so badly lacking, it's difficult to see how anyone can "connect those dots" that way, reasonably and objectively speaking.

To put it another way, if one should choose to believe in such a god, getting comfortable with the pantheist god is a lot easier than getting comfortable with the pantheist rationale that concludes such a god exists.
Agreed.
To put it simply from my perspective, pantheism is for people who have got on board with science, got on board with evolution and so on, but still need a god to explain it all. It's the buffet choice of god that ties in most closely with modern day thinking. And I can understand that. The Universe is a vast, beautiful and complex place. It's understandable to me that some people cannot believe it all developed of it's own accord. Somebody must have built it that way.
The problems arise if you actually think about how the universe was built.
If god was present at the start of the universe, there was nothing but gas and dust then. It took 14 billion years to get to this point. God must have been evolving as well right? Otherwise why wait 14 billion years?
So if god was evolving alongside the universe, isn't the universe in control of god and not the other way around?
How the universe evolved makes a lot of sense to me. It's a natural and predictable course of events dictated by physics. No god necessary.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:59 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
If there is any main trait/attribute that is indicative/demonstrative of "God", it is Creator (of everything).
Reality (all of existence, in totality) is the only thing that meets that standard.
And Reality is self-substantiating to exist.
That's my line of reasoning, anyway.
I fully understand the line of reasoning, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Just as I'm sure I'm not the only one who considers this line of reasoning rather lacking. After all, it's a rather limiting rationale that tends to end the questioning that still remains to be addressed, explored, verified and confirmed. With rationale like this, it's as if the story is over, but of course the story of understanding how everything came to be including life on Earth is just beginning!

A story that just might continue if we don't end ourselves before we can write the next chapter and learn still some more from it. Hopefully how best to survive ourselves for awhile longer...
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:00 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
Reputation: 3451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I'll be honest. I never understand conversations that include the word 'reality'.

Reality just means everything that exists as opposed to things that don't exist.

I mean what else is there? There is nothing else, so why say 'our reality' as if there was some other reality?

I do not believe in multiverses personally, I think it's pile of nonsense.
Even is there are other universes, so what? We can never see them or prove they exist so essentially it's a meaningless hypothesis.
Reminds me of what I tried to address in the very first of my "Ten Truths."
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:03 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Water View Post
Well, since you said please. But I will say, he deserves it in spades with his high-handed condescending "slow-learner-type" insults.

But ok, I'll back off just for you.. If he starts back, all bets are off.
Hate to repeat myself, but there is always the option to ignore as well. Even a feature provided in this forum to help us with that if needed. That goes for you and Gldn too of course. Everyone who can't seem to stay focused on the TOPIC OF THE THREAD.
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:05 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Sorry. I was typing my post...and my dog got into it with the woodchuck that lives under the shed.
So, time went by until I finished and clicked it up.
I should have just let it pass by.
Like this hasn't been suggested to you many times before? Too many times to count?
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:16 AM
 
29,435 posts, read 9,617,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Agreed.
To put it simply from my perspective, pantheism is for people who have got on board with science, got on board with evolution and so on, but still need a god to explain it all. It's the buffet choice of god that ties in most closely with modern day thinking. And I can understand that. The Universe is a vast, beautiful and complex place. It's understandable to me that some people cannot believe it all developed of it's own accord. Somebody must have built it that way.
The problems arise if you actually think about how the universe was built.
If god was present at the start of the universe, there was nothing but gas and dust then. It took 14 billion years to get to this point. God must have been evolving as well right? Otherwise why wait 14 billion years?
So if god was evolving alongside the universe, isn't the universe in control of god and not the other way around?
How the universe evolved makes a lot of sense to me. It's a natural and predictable course of events dictated by physics. No god necessary.
I'm not quite as impressed or complimentary toward the belief in pantheism, because it seems more of a convenient way to accept all we have learned about science, evolution and so on without truly appreciating how we have managed this progress DESPITE the constant need to spill the yoke of god notions all over it...

For me anyway, though I too can appreciate all the "good, bad and ugly" about pantheism, like I try to do objectively with any issue of controversy or question, it's hard for me to dismiss the bad just because of the good. Or the wrong just because of a bit of right.

There are people who also accept science, evolution, etc., who also believe in the Bible, and the Bible version of God. Not sure accepting what can hardly be denied negates so much of the rest that people accept as truth for reasons no more worthy than the reasons to believe in Pantheism.

Just my opinion of course, and like all opinions including yours, we're all reading and judging as we will. As best we can. Who is more right or wrong about such things is a subjective matter. More reasonable and rational or less. No doubt, but also no doubt some of us are more right than wrong about such things. Perhaps to be better determined well into the future while still today we flounder about the truth of such matters more than we really should. For lots of reasons beyond our control.
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:34 AM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,627,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I fully understand the line of reasoning, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Just as I'm sure I'm not the only one who considers this line of reasoning rather lacking. After all, it's a rather limiting rationale that tends to end the questioning that still remains to be addressed, explored, verified and confirmed. With rationale like this, it's as if the story is over, but of course the story of understanding how everything came to be including life on Earth is just beginning!

A story that just might continue if we don't end ourselves before we can write the next chapter and learn still some more from it. Hopefully how best to survive ourselves for awhile longer...
I do not see that (that, "we do not know the whole story") as a disqualification. And that has always been your main objection...that there are "so many unanswered questions for us/science to figure out the answer to".
By that standard we could not assign a title like "friend", "hero", ect to anything or anyone, because "we don't know the whole story" about it/them.
We know enough about The Universe/Reality/ALL That Exists for it to qualify, based upon known attributes, as meritorious of the title "God"...in my view.
The main attributes being Creator, All Present, and Something of Supreme Value.
I have concluded that the issue that causes the most problems with this view...is the default comparison to the metaphorical Religious Deities (and their claimed attributes) that were called "Gods" in ancient Theological writings...and The Cement (ya like that?) that locks people into the mindset "If it isn't THAT, it isn't God"...and reject any other manifestations or understanding of what could be a "God Entity".
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:41 AM
 
63,567 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I'll be honest. I never understand conversations that include the word 'reality'.
Reality just means everything that exists as opposed to things that don't exist.
I mean what else is there? There is nothing else, so why say 'our reality' as if there was some other reality?
I do not believe in multiverses personally, I think it's pile of nonsense.
Even is there are other universes, so what? We can never see them or prove they exist so essentially it's a meaningless hypothesis.
I understand, Cruithne, but absolutely everything we perceive is an interpretation by our brain of inputs emanating from WHATEVER Reality IS. That makes it OUR Reality and it is why everything that we perceive exists, including us. That, in my estimation, is sufficient for it to qualify as our God.

My experience of it as consciousness has imbued it with attributes some, like you and Arach, et al., are loathe to ascribe to Reality. But since it is, as best we can determine, a spacetime field at the base (quantum foam?), it is easy for me to accept it as a consciousness field with all the attributes that entails. Those attributes include "creation out of nothing," as in our imaginations!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I agree! There's no such thing as supernatural!
Agree wholeheartedly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
That's always my argument when the 'god is good' argument of Christianity is presented.
However 'most' pantheists believe in a non-interventionist god, which is not the same as the Christian god. They believe in a god that created everything and IS everything, but doesn't intervene in the day to day events so to speak.
What's the point in an non-interventionist god you might ask? I have no idea but as I've said before as beliefs go, it's not a bad one. It's not that dissimilar to believing in no god and believing everything just came about as a result of physics as I do.
I say 'most pantheists'.
What people actually believe seems to be as varied as stars in the sky.

Some pantheists believe in a god that encompasses both pantheism AND a Christian god. I believe Mystic and Gldn are two such people. If you ask them nicely and politely they might explain it to you. I haven't got to the bottom of how they square this but if I hang around for long enough maybe I will understand. They are both amenable as long as you don't take the Mickey out of their beliefs.

There's also panentheism which from what I understand posits that while god is everything, it is also more powerful than just being a god, it also intervenes (I think). I'm not quite clear on this either.

I think I have pantheism nailed so far. The rest of it I'm unclear on.
My view is decidedly panENtheist, Cruithne, NOT pantheist. I view our directly measurable material reality (<5%) as God's immanence and our unmeasurable immaterial reality (95+%) like our consciousness as God's transcendence. Obviously, I see our consciousness as the best indicator of what the immaterial spacetime field actually is. (It is also consistent with the ancient speculation that we are created in God's image and likeness - i.e., having God's attributes especially consciousness. )

This tends to remove my focus from what happens in our material lives to what is happening inour consciousness, which Is where I believe God's focus and corner lies. The material reality is merely the venue within which our consciousness can develop its spiritual character which I am convinced is ALL that God is concerned about.

In other words, any interventions would strictly be through our consciousness and those of others. I have no expectation that God would intervene to regrow someone's limbs, or whatever! We are here to spiritually develop our character by overcoming and enduring whatever we face in this material life. After all, material existence is less than 5% of our Reality. What we will be "born again" into as Spirit is over 95+%. Which would you concern yourself with?
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Old 07-16-2021, 12:02 PM
 
63,567 posts, read 39,855,129 times
Reputation: 7819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Just taking your first paragraph Mystic...
You seem to be saying that you think it's possible that god came to exist ie there was a time when god did not exist.

I'm suprised to see you even considering that as a possibility.

In my view, the universe has always existed in some form. I think there is likely something cyclical going on. It's the only thing that makes any rational sense to me.
The unvarnished truth is that "We do not know" squat about how long our reality existed nor how long it will continue to exist, Cruithne. I am good with it always existing, but also have no issues with any other answer since we simply do not know.
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