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That is a strange choice of words for that verse in my opinion...to suggest the delusion is SO good...it would fool the elect (if possible), but its not possible to fool them!
I guess it may just be how they spoke in those times...
Either way, an extraterrestrial 'creator' would be a VERY STRONG delusion, the general public is already primed for it (popular tv and movies for the past 30 yrs), I bet 90% of the population would fall for this lie on the first day, (they wouldnt even question it at all).
I think that you’re misunderstanding what I’m getting at...It’s like a magic show where the magician takes of his hate and proceeds to pull a rabbit out of his hat, followed by a pigeon, a large bouquet of roses, a chihuahua, a 30 pound turkey and a chicken...Everyone in the audience is wowed by this feat, except you, you have the sense that something is not right and refuse to believe what you saw with your own eyes, a strong delusion that, 99% of the audience fell for, but not you, you say to yourself, “I saw it with my own eyes, I should believe it, but I don’t, something’s not right, it doesn’t line up with what I know to be physical science, you can’t stuff all that into a space that small.”...Its because you educated yourself in the sciences, the 99% didn’t, so, they were easily deluded...But, the act was so perfect, that if you hadn’t educated yourself in the sciences, you’d be deluded too...Now, put that into a spiritual narrative and you might understand where they were coming from...
I think that you’re misunderstanding what I’m getting at...It’s like a magic show where the magician takes of his hate and proceeds to pull a rabbit out of his hat, followed by a pigeon, a large bouquet of roses, a chihuahua, a 30 pound turkey and a chicken...Everyone in the audience is wowed by this feat, except you, you have the sense that something is not right and refuse to believe what you saw with your own eyes, a strong delusion that, 99% of the audience fell for, but not you, you say to yourself, “I saw it with my own eyes, I should believe it, but I don’t, something’s not right, it doesn’t line up with what I know to be physical science, you can’t stuff all that into a space that small.”...Its because you educated yourself in the sciences, the 99% didn’t, so, they were easily deluded...But, the act was so perfect, that if you hadn’t educated yourself in the sciences, you’d be deluded too...Now, put that into a spiritual narrative and you might understand where they were coming from...
I think we get where the 'rationally' Ought to be coming from, but I'm not sure they are.
It is an Arq Axiom that, if you know how the trick works, you won't be fooled by it.
In that analogy, if we don't know how natural stuff works, we may be convinced to beleive it is the Supernatural. e.g gods.
But the more we see how the 'trick' works, the less we are fooled into believing there is the Supernatural behind it. What's more, (going back to the 'magician' analogy), we are going to be more skeptical of the other magicians, and are not going to be impressed by the reasoning powers of the person who believes that they are actual magic, especially when they dismiss the explanation of how the trick works and even claim that the magician they favour is a real magician, but all the others are just pretending that they are.
I think we get where the 'rationally' Ought to be coming from, but I'm not sure they are.
It is an Arq Axiom that, if you know how the trick works, you won't be fooled by it.
In that analogy, if we don't know how natural stuff works, we may be convinced to beleive it is the Supernatural. e.g gods.
But the more we see how the 'trick' works, the less we are fooled into believing there is the Supernatural behind it. What's more, (going back to the 'magician' analogy), we are going to be more skeptical of the other magicians, and are not going to be impressed by the reasoning powers of the person who believes that they are actual magic, especially when they dismiss the explanation of how the trick works and even claim that the magician they favour is a real magician, but all the others are just pretending that they are.
Also have to consider that 'advanced technology' WILL appear to be magic, to anyone not familiar with it. (some examples below)
What would a person from the 1500s think if they saw a modern car or truck...they would wonder how it operates without horses or oxen pulling it...not even going to mention what they would think if they saw a modern airplane or helicopter!!!
What would a person from the 1800s think of a modern desktop computer...this would certainly appear to be magic to them!
In that analogy, if we don't know how natural stuff works, we may be convinced to beleive it is the Supernatural. e.g gods.
Contrary to popular opinion on this forum, it is NOT necessary to believe in the irrational "supernatural" to believe in God. It is useful for atheists to push the "supernatural" because it facilitates refuting God belief. That is the trick that has been instantiated into the forum rules.
What if the elect are actually the Jews and Christianity is the delusion?...
I must admit that I was assuming that the 'Elect' were Jews (maybe Hassidim) of some kind, but you may have someone else in mind.
In any case, I see no believers on any religion as 'The Elect', or even the non -believers or top -genius scientists as meriting such an elitist title.
Also have to consider that 'advanced technology' WILL appear to be magic, to anyone not familiar with it. (some examples below)
What would a person from the 1500s think if they saw a modern car or truck...they would wonder how it operates without horses or oxen pulling it...not even going to mention what they would think if they saw a modern airplane or helicopter!!!
What would a person from the 1800s think of a modern desktop computer...this would certainly appear to be magic to them!
Quite so. That is another 'alternative' explanation for the 'supernatural' claim.
But it is beside the point.
First you have to show that some unepxlained phenomenon exists.
Then you have to come up with a hypothesis as an explanation, or say you can't think of one.
Either way, the Unexplained, shown to be an actual phenomenon or not, remains evidence of no claim or hypothesis, whatever it is. Only what can be explained and the explanation validated is Data; speculative guesswork or Faith -claims is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
That is a strange choice of words for that verse in my opinion...to suggest the delusion is SO good...it would fool the elect (if possible), but its not possible to fool them!
I guess it may just be how they spoke in those times...
Either way, an extraterrestrial 'creator' would be a VERY STRONG delusion, the general public is already primed for it (popular tv and movies for the past 30 yrs), I bet 90% of the population would fall for this lie on the first day, (they wouldnt even question it at all).
If a holographic projection of a god appeared in the sky saying 'I am your God; worship me!!' I might be overwhelmed myself.
Quite so. That is another 'alternative' explanation for the 'supernatural' claim.
But it is beside the point.
First you have to show that some unepxlained phenomenon exists.
Then you have to come up with a hypothesis as an explanation, or say you can't think of one.
Either way, the Unexplained, shown to be an actual phenomenon or not, remains evidence of no claim or hypothesis, whatever it is. Only what can be explained and the explanation validated is Data; speculative guesswork or Faith -claims is not.
If a holographic projection of a god appeared in the sky saying 'I am your God; worship me!!' I might be overwhelmed myself.
Its safe to say the first part has definitely been accomplished...(our own Defense Dept released three videos of 'unexplained aircraft from the Nimitiz incident)...it would be foolish to assume this is the ONLY 'evidence' they have...its just some they decided to release to the public.
Have you looked at the recent NSA documents released per Rep Schiffs request? I could not believe what I was reading!!! (and then you have to keep in mind, its likely there are many other documents/ evidence, that has NOT been released to the public).
Saying the evidence does not exist is not really accurate...its more of that we (general population) do not have access to this information, as its kept 'classified' for reasons of national security.
Its safe to say the first part has definitely been accomplished...(our own Defense Dept released three videos of 'unexplained aircraft from the Nimitiz incident)...it would be foolish to assume this is the ONLY 'evidence' they have...its just some they decided to release to the public.
Have you looked at the recent NSA documents released per Rep Schiffs request? I could not believe what I was reading!!! (and then you have to keep in mind, its likely there are many other documents/ evidence, that has NOT been released to the public).
Saying the evidence does not exist is not really accurate...its more of that we (general population) do not have access to this information, as its kept 'classified' for reasons of national security.
Allright. Ok. This is a Ufo point. I do know of pretty strong evidence of an Unexplained Flying Objects phenomenon which intrigues me considerably. It is unexplained. It is rather featureless, by which i mean that the classic disk with landing legs, portholes and a wild variety of extraterrestrials as pilots coming out (1) is not what the reliable source seem to be observing. rather oval -ish featureless aerial objects.
I am far less convinced by the flying saucers and alien visitors evidence, there being a lot of fakery and bunkum connected with it and the three classic cases (Hills, Socorro and Villas Boas) not looking as sound as they did. Crop circles for instance, once regarded as final proof is now for sure understood as a spoof that went viral and became a cult and is now an artform and advertising medium.
That said, the UFO argument is a different subject on a religion forum and it would be more appropriate to accept the serious possibility of intelligent life on other planets, even if we have to think in terms of planets too far away for there to be much possibility of contact, even if they are in our galaxy at all. So, to topic, given the theoretical possibility of such Et -alien races, what would this mean for religions?
I don't think this a problem for any Christians other than Genesis literalists who would be saying that the sky is a dome with the stars as lights to ..do something not quite clear. And man was made in one go and is God's only reasoning creation. Since even they hardly adhere to the snow -dome theory, there seems little reason but blind dogmatic denialism to reject the other findings of science and should have no problem with the idea of other worlds and other races that God has His plan for as He has for us - in Religious thought. I see it as no serious problem for religion and I don't comprehend why they should.
(1)since the film, solidified in the popular mind as 'greys'. Nordic blonds, Mothmen, gnomes, Robots, scaly aliens and even bipedal lobsters, hardly showing up, latterly.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-05-2020 at 01:49 AM..
Reason: typos!
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